Interesting, thanks for the link. Here's hoping they put a few more mechanics in there than what we've seen in the past. I can't tell the difference between a game in Forgotten Realms and one in Eberron aside from the description of how the town looks. Hopefully it will distinguish itself from the Eberealms.
D&D 4E 4e Dark Sun
- Thread starter Mort_Q
- Start date
fireinthedust
Explorer
Defilers/Preservers: if you don't take preserver feats, you start to lose your party's rations of food and water?
Clerics: keep in mind that the ultimate cosmology is going to be based on the Axis. Dark Sun was still in the Material Plane and thus in the Great Wheel; just cut off from everything. Getting through the Gray to the Elements (in this case Elemental Chaos) is going to be only slightly easier than going anywhere near the Outer Planes.
I expect Primordial elemental personas of some sort for elemental clerics. I expect Templars, if a PC class at all, will have one Unaligned Sorcerer King to choose from for their spells; I expect this means the Democracy city-state is going to be that way, unlike the original boxed set (or not; they said the Pentad was going to be an option for how things could-have happened).
Survival Checks: everyone will have this as a bonus skill. You have to roll for each set of abilities during an extended rest, to see if you get them back. (that sounds awful, though, so I doubt it)
At the very least, you have to roll to avoid a penalty to your actions; IF you don't have food or water, that is.
They'll have Mounts for travel, as that's such a huge part of things. Encounter guidelines for trade caravans, walking, and floating.
Environmental rules are obvious, from hazards like the silt sea, to the Ringing Mountains (penalties to breathing air).
Psionic feats are likely. I doubt everyone will get a bonus feat, but they'll have Psionic Talent-style background options, as well as Feat options, to choose from.
Races: I am fairly certain they'll have a different breed of elves for this. Or feats to boost running speed. I'd be surprised about Feywild races, as I think gnomes were eradicated. Read it in Wikipedia today
Dragonborn are a shoe in, and would fit the setting. Genasi would also fit right in, as would Goliaths, Githyanki, Minotaurs, shifters, half-orcs, and even Deva (angels who avoided destruction by taking flesh form?).
Extraplanar races like Feywild ones may well have a region in the world they can come from. Also, Athasian Underdark info would be of interest (allowing options for individual campaigns without saying specifically what goes there).
expect Dragon articles on how to fit in races from other settings (warforged found in some ruin, etc.)
Likely there will be guidelines for having more in the setting than before, but focus will be on classic elements rather than cutting things out. They just won't mention stuff, I guess. Not kitchen sink, of course, but why state limitations? Banning it outright own't happen per se, as you could always find something from ages past in some ruin or other. They will just say that stuff like that is uncommon, and someone will try to rob you.
I think rules changes to the setting will be added to give more bang for your buck: I don't pay money to have my PC die. I want a challenge, but I want to see the end of the module, for example.
That said, how to make the PCs' lives miserable, but the player experience FUN is going to be important. I expect a rewards system for XP during survival checks (even for failing; the die failed, not you), in case the PC you like gets hurt. Or action points handed out when you're beat up badly.
I don't think scheduling my week around a game where the DM is going to tell me that my PC has died for no good reason, based on a roll that I have no control over, is worth the money, time, effort or aggravation. If you do... well, there are fine places you can go for a good spanking. I highly doubt WOTC wants to be that place.
You go for excitement; you keep coming back for that; they'll make a Dark Sun you'll want to come back to.
The trick to the rules changes is making harsh environments and shattering weapons... FUN. The fans WANT the harsh. but it has to be fun, and it has to be foolproof (in case my DM sucks).
Clerics: keep in mind that the ultimate cosmology is going to be based on the Axis. Dark Sun was still in the Material Plane and thus in the Great Wheel; just cut off from everything. Getting through the Gray to the Elements (in this case Elemental Chaos) is going to be only slightly easier than going anywhere near the Outer Planes.
I expect Primordial elemental personas of some sort for elemental clerics. I expect Templars, if a PC class at all, will have one Unaligned Sorcerer King to choose from for their spells; I expect this means the Democracy city-state is going to be that way, unlike the original boxed set (or not; they said the Pentad was going to be an option for how things could-have happened).
Survival Checks: everyone will have this as a bonus skill. You have to roll for each set of abilities during an extended rest, to see if you get them back. (that sounds awful, though, so I doubt it)
At the very least, you have to roll to avoid a penalty to your actions; IF you don't have food or water, that is.
They'll have Mounts for travel, as that's such a huge part of things. Encounter guidelines for trade caravans, walking, and floating.
Environmental rules are obvious, from hazards like the silt sea, to the Ringing Mountains (penalties to breathing air).
Psionic feats are likely. I doubt everyone will get a bonus feat, but they'll have Psionic Talent-style background options, as well as Feat options, to choose from.
Races: I am fairly certain they'll have a different breed of elves for this. Or feats to boost running speed. I'd be surprised about Feywild races, as I think gnomes were eradicated. Read it in Wikipedia today
Dragonborn are a shoe in, and would fit the setting. Genasi would also fit right in, as would Goliaths, Githyanki, Minotaurs, shifters, half-orcs, and even Deva (angels who avoided destruction by taking flesh form?).
Extraplanar races like Feywild ones may well have a region in the world they can come from. Also, Athasian Underdark info would be of interest (allowing options for individual campaigns without saying specifically what goes there).
expect Dragon articles on how to fit in races from other settings (warforged found in some ruin, etc.)
Likely there will be guidelines for having more in the setting than before, but focus will be on classic elements rather than cutting things out. They just won't mention stuff, I guess. Not kitchen sink, of course, but why state limitations? Banning it outright own't happen per se, as you could always find something from ages past in some ruin or other. They will just say that stuff like that is uncommon, and someone will try to rob you.
I think rules changes to the setting will be added to give more bang for your buck: I don't pay money to have my PC die. I want a challenge, but I want to see the end of the module, for example.
That said, how to make the PCs' lives miserable, but the player experience FUN is going to be important. I expect a rewards system for XP during survival checks (even for failing; the die failed, not you), in case the PC you like gets hurt. Or action points handed out when you're beat up badly.
I don't think scheduling my week around a game where the DM is going to tell me that my PC has died for no good reason, based on a roll that I have no control over, is worth the money, time, effort or aggravation. If you do... well, there are fine places you can go for a good spanking. I highly doubt WOTC wants to be that place.
You go for excitement; you keep coming back for that; they'll make a Dark Sun you'll want to come back to.
The trick to the rules changes is making harsh environments and shattering weapons... FUN. The fans WANT the harsh. but it has to be fun, and it has to be foolproof (in case my DM sucks).
Saeviomagy
Adventurer
I never understood the fixation on needing wilderness survival rules for darksun. I don't recall it ever being a major issue in the novels, presumably because everyone in the entire world was a survival expert, so the whole thing turned out a wash.
I think the preserver/defiler split can be pretty easily handled by flavour text and the npc/pc split.
Bad materials was never really an issue... realistically people just didn't use the bad stuff because the penalty for using it was so high (ie noone wore metal armor, everyone went with weapons that didn't break etc).
In short, ds is entirely implementable with no rules changes.
I think the preserver/defiler split can be pretty easily handled by flavour text and the npc/pc split.
Bad materials was never really an issue... realistically people just didn't use the bad stuff because the penalty for using it was so high (ie noone wore metal armor, everyone went with weapons that didn't break etc).
In short, ds is entirely implementable with no rules changes.
In a way it is, but you could always explain it with something like: Those who take the easy path of defiling don't learn to understand magic as thoroughly and don't face the challenges that would let them grow in other areas (i.e. take some other feat in the slot that was filled by the defiler feat).
But for someone multiclassing and just picking up an arcane power here or there, you're right that it wouldn't make sense to say that they have the ability to act as a preserver but are somehow lacking the training to act as a defiler.
I was thinking more in terms of game balance; if there's something that increases your character's power, it should have a build cost. Trying to balance mechanical advantages only with social disadvantages doesn't seem to work very well.
I wouldn't be surprised if they just say "You shouldn't play a defiler" like they say you shouldn't play evil characters in the 4e PHB.
DracoSuave
First Post
True, but it -was- an important aspect of the campaign-as-written. I mean, they nerfed Create Water just because it was so powerful as it was in second edition.
Defilers also assigned a penalty to the attack rolls of creatures around them when they cast spells. Dragons (epic level defilers) actually killed creatures around them for doing so.
That ain't flavor text.
Few rules changes. I'd do it by having arcane characters choose a preserver or defiler build at the beginning (same way you pick other class features) with benefits for both. Ironicly, 2e Dark Sun had rules for 21-30 which are even better served by Epic Destinies than what they had before.
The Divine power source will have to be altered a lot. No Gods, right? And Primal is closer to what the 2e Dark Sun cleric types were up to. But, if they give it more of a primordial feel, then Clerics will translate over perfectly, Paladins and Avengers will replace what was Rangers, and Invokers work as an alternate 'Cleric' as well.
And let's face it, Dark Sun -will- have the Epic Destiny 'Primordial' for Clerics of the elements.
What was bards can be handled by Rogues or Rangers now, with no real change at all.
Dwarves, Elves, Halflings, Half-elves are pretty much what they were... even closer than 2e base. Goliaths make great Half-Giants. Reskin Eladrin away from the fey aspect and give it more of a psionic feel and that'll work well too.
But Dark Sun was -hella- different. 4e will have to do some reskinning to accomodate it.
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Saeviomagy
Adventurer
It more destroyed the tone than anything else. With create water in it's original form there really wasn't ever any feeling of water shortage anywhere ever...
No, because you're not quoting flavour here, you're quoting the original rules, which as far as I know were rooted in flavour. Defilers cause pain to those around them when they cast. That doesn't necessarily mean you need to assess mechanical penalties.
Creatures dying for spellcasting tended to be restricted to really big stuff, right? Like rituals maybe? I mean sure, there's mechanics there, but it's not the sort of "rewrite the base classes" that some people take it to require.
The divine power source already includes quasi-deific things and ideals (there's one of each in eberron).
Reskinning, sure. But often people go nuts on actual rule changes (like rewriting the entire wizard class, or banning clerics) which isn't what is necessary.
DracoSuave
First Post
Hense why it only created 1/2 gallon/level. Nerfed. Not kept as is. And only available to Clerics of Water.
Mechanics that capture flavor are not a bad thing. No need to abandon the concept. It could easily be captured like this:
When you select an arcane class, choose one:
Defiler: After you use a non-preserving arcane power, it gains the defiling keyword, and an area of defiled blight appears in a close burst around you. You cannot use Preserving or Primal powers.
At-will: Close burst 1
Encounter: Close burst 2
Daily: Close burst 3
Defiling infusion
Encounter - Arcane, Defiling
Minor Action Close burst 5
Targets: All creatures in burst except you.
Effect: All targets get -2 to attack rolls. The area in the burst permanently becomes defiled blight.
Defiling keyword: At-will powers with the defiling keyword gain +1 to damage rolls against creatures in defiled blight. Encounter powers gain +2, and Daily powers gain +3.
Preserver: You cannot be affected by defiling blight, and you are immune to the non-damaging effects of defiling powers. When you use a daily arcane power, you or an ally adjacent to you can make a saving throw. You cannot use powers with the Defiling keyword.
See. Flavor should sometimes inform mechanics.
Niether do I. A rewrite isn't necessary, but a nod'd be nice. Defliling could be a character option in the same sense that spellscars are. A minus, for a bonus.
That part's not up for debate, and the channel divinity aspects of the cleric can easily be addressed: Four feats for each element, each a different channel divinity. Obviously.
However, that doesn't make the cleric elemental.
It wouldn't take much, honestly. Simply have every divine class pick an element at creation, and change their at-wills so that they have a damage type appropriate to that element.
Example:
Fire - fire
Water - cold
Air - thunder
Earth - force.
This works elegantly, and doesn't require a complete rebuild.
Holy power itself, radiant light as a healing force, tho, doesn't really jive with the Dark Sun setting. In non-at-will powers, it can represent the searing force of the sun itself, but it shouldn't be the primary damage type of an elemental-based character.
Neither do I agree is that appropriate. In fact, I've said the opposite, that doing so should be done with simple steps that do so elegantly and without a major revision to how they already work.
Elves were known for running, coincidentally, they have the largest speed. Done. Dwarves are known for their stubborn willpower, and their focus oaths. The current dwarf captures that stalwart nature nicely. Halflings were barbarous and ate people. What works in Eberron works in Dark Sun.
fireinthedust
Explorer
I like it. If you're a Cleric of Water, mind you, you also don't get the various protections other 2e elemental clerics got. Immunity to fire attacks? Ability to walk through walls? the Water version of that power was useless, mostly, but they don't care because of the situational benefit of making water so they don't die.
However, how did they hold up in Combat compared to the other classes?
I like this a lot, by the way. Well done.
I think this is generally how they'll deal with the Defiler/Preserver split. It'll be like the Warlock pacts.
That reminds me: are Warlocks going to be like Templars? Ie: you make a Pact with an Elemental Spirit, a Sorcerer King, or a Primal Spirit.
Warlocks, Swordmages, Bards, Artificers, Sorcerers. These are non-primal classes that we're not sure about. They're going to likely have some aspect of Defiler/Preserver available to them, perhaps.
Divine Classes: I think the feats for Elemental choices will be there. Keep in mind all the various classes, including Avenger and Paladin, will be drawing from these.
Will Elemental be treated as a Divine power source? I don't know. Keep in mind that Swordmage works just as well for an elemental character, as does a Dragon Sorcerer.
DS will be changed, but I think it'll be good. I think we might see Arcane characters with the option to be both Preservers *or* Defilers, depending on power choices. I think what's considered Arcane or Divine will be swapped around (ie: Swordmages of fire/water/earth rather than Defiler swordmages).
Shadow is also going to be a power source, so maybe that will be where Defiler comes in?
Some people aren't happy with reskinning. I, for instance, have better things to spend my money on than a book that is the same as the other books I already have just with the cover art changed and the names of the powers dark-sun-ified. I can cut'n'paste too, I don't need WotC for that.
DracoSuave
First Post
Well, the thing is, Defilers and Preservers were doing the same things. That's the important point to make. It wasn't that they had different spells, it was that they were using the same spells, but Defilers damned the consequences.
The way they handled it in 2e was very simple. Defilers created an area of dead plants around them that got bigger as they cast more spells. In return, they literally needed a quarter less xp than normal wizards to level up. You'd start to see a very real level discreprency very quickly, two levels once you hit level 6, and the defiler would just grow in power from there.
The downside, of course, was that there wasn't a single living thing on Athas that didn't want to kill you on sight.
But none of that is really 'Wizard' (i.e. arcane controller) specific. It can be applied just as easily to Swordmages, Warlocks, Bards-as-they-are-normally, and Artificers.
The reason divine characters have to change is simply because divine magic was strongly elemental based. Picture shugenja from 3e and you get a good idea of what they were doing. The cleric -as-is- doesn't capture that so well. Well, the fighting cleric, maybe, but a laser cleric really doesn't come close.
More importantly will be need to fill in certain voids. Templars can be covered by Clerics or Invokers no problem (in fact, they were the closest to 2e clerics). If they elemental up the Divine Classes, then the role Rangers used to have (warriors with elemental magic) would be taken over by Paladins and Avengers, depending on build.
Traders, well, they might not make it, and that's fine. Bards in DS were a martial class (if you can believe that) based around poisons. That'd need a new class to capture, some poisoner of foes. (the wierd thing is such a class'd then be able to go back to Eberron and fit in nicely with house Thuranni) The bard class doesn't come close to covering the Athasian Bard's role in things. That said, the 4e bard does have a place somewhere in Dark Sun, can't think of the life of me where exactly but it certainly -fits-.
The way they handled it in 2e was very simple. Defilers created an area of dead plants around them that got bigger as they cast more spells. In return, they literally needed a quarter less xp than normal wizards to level up. You'd start to see a very real level discreprency very quickly, two levels once you hit level 6, and the defiler would just grow in power from there.
The downside, of course, was that there wasn't a single living thing on Athas that didn't want to kill you on sight.
But none of that is really 'Wizard' (i.e. arcane controller) specific. It can be applied just as easily to Swordmages, Warlocks, Bards-as-they-are-normally, and Artificers.
The reason divine characters have to change is simply because divine magic was strongly elemental based. Picture shugenja from 3e and you get a good idea of what they were doing. The cleric -as-is- doesn't capture that so well. Well, the fighting cleric, maybe, but a laser cleric really doesn't come close.
More importantly will be need to fill in certain voids. Templars can be covered by Clerics or Invokers no problem (in fact, they were the closest to 2e clerics). If they elemental up the Divine Classes, then the role Rangers used to have (warriors with elemental magic) would be taken over by Paladins and Avengers, depending on build.
Traders, well, they might not make it, and that's fine. Bards in DS were a martial class (if you can believe that) based around poisons. That'd need a new class to capture, some poisoner of foes. (the wierd thing is such a class'd then be able to go back to Eberron and fit in nicely with house Thuranni) The bard class doesn't come close to covering the Athasian Bard's role in things. That said, the 4e bard does have a place somewhere in Dark Sun, can't think of the life of me where exactly but it certainly -fits-.
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