The Great Longbow Debate

[CharlesRyan]

All I'm saying is that historically, according to eg the last sword display I saw (at the Archaeolink centre in Aberdeenshire, Scotland), big ole two-handed swords, like what D&D calls greatswords, were sometimes called "long swords", because they were longer than regular swords (arming swords) and broadswords. These same swords were also sometimes called great or grete swords.

This is my understanding as well. What D&D (and most modern games and fiction) calls a longsword was more commonly known as an arming sword; the term longsword, when used, more likely referred to what games call a greatsword or two-handed sword.

But Umbran's point about the lack of standard nomenclature, not just between time periods and societies but even within a given society, is equally valid.

 

[Andor]

If they didn't I'd be off to Chester to shoot Welsh people.

I was once told that there is still a law on the books in Wisconsin that if you see three indians together in a canoe it's a warparty and you can shoot them.

I wouldn't try it though.

For that matter I believe dueling is still technically legal in Louisiana.

Archaic law is FUN!

 

[mmadsen]

The Lobgbow's arrows are much bigger and heavier thanthe Mongolian ones, thus, more impact force.

That doesn't naturally follow, although I suspect it's true. Heavier (more massive) objects don't necessarily deliver more force (or energy) than lighter (less massive) objects -- unless you're assuming that they travel at the same rate (velocity), which wouldn't be the case here.

Also, as I recall, the Mongols used two weights of arrow, one heavy, one light, for different ranges. I suspect that even the heavier arrow was lighter than an English cloth-yard shaft, but I don't know off the top of my head.

Please note form tests and skeletons, longbow hits shattered bones (even smaller bows), the impact energy itself is enough to stop you cold a lot of the time.

The impact energy from an arrow would be somewhat less than the "muzzle" energy of the arrow coming off the bowstring: (75 g) x (45 m/s) = 76 j. (From Infantry Missile Weapons in the Renaissance.)

By comparison, the kinetic energy in a professional fastball pitch: (145 g) x (45 m/s) = 147 j. Granted, the baseball isn't a sharp steel arrowhead...

 

[Hand of Evil]

Here is the math!

From an older thread: THE PHYSICS OF MEDIEVAL ARCHERY

 

[El Mahdi]

...By comparison, the kinetic energy in a professional fastball pitch: (145 g) x (45 m/s) = 147 j. Granted, the baseball isn't a sharp steel arrowhead...

Yup. Getting hit by a major league fastball, squarely in the chest or head (without a helmet, of course), can critically injure or even kill.

And, as Umbran and some others said earlier, the real deadliness of the arrow, regardless of size, was in the massive bleeding it could cause from severed blood vessels.

The effectiveness of the arrow though, was also due to the fact that even if the arrow was hitting with less energy, that energy is concentrated in an area about (just spitballing here) 1/100th of the baseball. That's why the arrow will penetrate and the baseball won't (it will just crack your skull, cause massive bleeding of the brain, break ribs, stop your heart, etc., etc.).




Nice post mmadsen. I'm glad there are people like you out there (Umbran also) who actually like the math. I hate math, I just like the physical concepts.

 

[mmadsen]

Yup. Getting hit by a major league fastball, squarely in the chest or head (without a helmet, of course), can critically injure or even kill.

Most of us can't throw a baseball at anywhere near 100 mph (or 45 m/s), so that's not really an option, but, then, we wouldn't throw a baseball at a goblin; we'd throw a rock, and a rock is much harder than a baseball.

And a shepherd wouldn't throw a rock by hand; he'd use a sling, which can hurl a 100-g rock at 30 m/s -- that's 90 j right there. Quite lethal. I hear you could kill a giant with one. And a sling has better range than a long bow. I have to wonder about the accuracy though.

 

[El Mahdi]

...I hear you could kill a giant with one. ...

You know, I think I read a story about that once ... in some book ... can't remember exactly where though ...

 

[mmadsen]

This is my understanding as well. What D&D (and most modern games and fiction) calls a longsword was more commonly known as an arming sword; the term longsword, when used, more likely referred to what games call a greatsword or two-handed sword.

Even more likely, what D&D calls a long sword and modern experts call an arming sword was simply called a sword.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

Even more likely, what D&D calls a long sword and modern experts call an arming sword was simply called a sword.

But just because "pointy-end-goes-into-enemy" was too long.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

But just because "pointy-end-goes-into-enemy" was too long.

Thus, the inspiration for naming my PC's next great magical sword, P.E.G.I.E. ("Peggy").