Points to note...

[Umbran]

So, something nice happened to me today. The Universe hasn't been terribly kind to me recently. One of my friends saw this, and out of the blue decided to give me a copy of the Pathfinder Core Rules, just 'cause I might like them.

Up to this time, I hadn't paid a lot of attention to the details of Pathfinder. I figured that if I wanted to continue playing 3.x-style games, I could use my current books just fine.

My initial skim shows me some of what I suspected - keeping the fiddly details between 3.x and Pathfinder will take some doing. Thankfully, the Subtle Rule Changes thread will help a bit with that.

But, I can ask here a more general question. Assume for a moment that I already have 3.x material, and I like 3.x in general. Assume also that I am not particularly concerned with continuing support (I already play a lot of out-of-print games, so I normally work without new products). Assume, also, that WotC/Paizo fan partisanship is going to get you thwapped.

Given those assumptions, tell me why you think I should look at Pathfinder as the basis of my next campaign instead of 3.x. What's different in the rules and flavor that makes you prefer it?

 

[Alzrius]

Well, I much prefer it for what it did for a lot of the main spellcasting classes. A specialist wizard really feels different from a generalist wizard now, and from other specialists, in both powers and flavor. Same goes for sorcerers now that they vary by what bloodline they choose, and even cleric domains add a greater degree of variance when chosen. And half-orcs actually seem worth playing.

A lot of the rules changes really are easier for play now, also. CMB vs. CMD is a very elegant mechanic, and I like that all monsters have a flat XP listing. Picking skills and totaling up that skill bonus is simpler now, and polymorphing spells are somewhat curtailed. These are all relatively minor changes that speed things up nicely at the game table.

 

[TheAuldGrump]

Let me be the first second to say 'Sorcerous Bloodlines'.

Sorcerous Bloodlines are pretty darned cool, and add flavor to what I, personally, considered the blandest class in 3.X. How your line got its magic now affects what your character can do.

I have heard people complain about the bard in 3.X - but I had several players who felt the class was worth playing. (Including one opera singer. Somehow I never expected to ever have an opera singer as a player in one of my games. )

Only one player took sorcerer, and that only to enter a prestige class.

I have been running Pathfinder since the Beta came out, and I have had two players who took sorcerer, and stuck with the class. So, I am not alone in thinking that the Sorcerous Bloodlines make a big difference.

The Auld Grump

 

[billd91]

New smite rules for paladins.
Rage powers for barbarians.
More bonuses for rangers.
Half-orcs no longer a red-headed step child.
Polymorph insanity finally reeled in in a good and thorough way.
High plus weapons more valuable because they may be able to overcome some DR.
Monk flurry no longer a flurry of misses.

 

[Aldor]

New disease, curse and poison rules! They are actually threatening for a greater range of levels. Poison, in particular, feels more "poisony" than it did in 3.5.

 

[Herremann the Wise]

So, something nice happened to me today. The Universe hasn't been terribly kind to me recently. One of my friends saw this, and out of the blue decided to give me a copy of the Pathfinder Core Rules, just 'cause I might like them.

Just a quick note to say I hope things are looking up.

Assume for a moment that I already have 3.x material, and I like 3.x in general. Assume also that I am not particularly concerned with continuing support (I already play a lot of out-of-print games, so I normally work without new products). Assume, also, that WotC/Paizo fan partisanship is going to get you thwapped.

Given those assumptions, tell me why you think I should look at Pathfinder as the basis of my next campaign instead of 3.x. What's different in the rules and flavor that makes you prefer it?

There's a couple of things I can think of but take this from a DM who has read chunks of the rules and skimmed the rest and a DM who's about to start a Pathfinder campaign and so is somewhat partisan in Pathfinder's favour.

- The core classes have been really nicely defined and differentiated. The sorcerer no longer feels like a second rate wizard. The bloodline powers they receive give them a well differentiated niche. Specialist wizards feel different from universalists and in a good way. The Paladin compared to the cleric has also been more carefully differentiated in terms of role. Likewise, each class feels special in their own way - I think a good power balance between the classes has been worked out and should stay that way until fairly high level (before the full spellcasters become more powerful).
- Golarion is a very good setting - although from other posts of yours, I assume you'll be homebrewing. The support for the setting is also magnificent if you like that type of thing.
- While you have lots of 3.x stuff, starting back at a "core" set of rules is invigorating. The rules are comprehensive enough that they feel different from 3.x but are restrained and balanced, allowing a focus on the action and story, rather than a never-ending pastiche of forthcoming mechanics.
- It just looks like a lot of fun!

- There are further reasons but it's late here in Australia. Hope everything's cool over the other side of the world.


Best Regards
Herremann the Wise

 

[an_idol_mind]

Low levels are improved for almost all classes without a serious hike in overall power.

Classes are very much improved, with each class now getting a lot of versatility and many interesting powers.

The skill system is streamlined, making NPC creation a bit easier and reducing the need to buy two or three skills (Hide and Stealth, Listen/Search/Spot) to do one thing.

Combat maneuvers are streamlined into one general system, reducing some of the odds and ends from the dozen or so different special maneuvers. In addition, the combat maneuver mechanic is flexible enough to allow all sorts of new stunts and maneuvers to be made up on the fly.

There are a lot of other points, too, but most of those are minor ways that the system has been tweaked and are probably not enough to sell a $50 rulebook on.

One other main selling point that might or might not matter to you is the high quality of the book itself. Excellent art, good binding, high quality all around. And the one core book is easier to carry to games and sort through than the combination of the Player's Handbook and Dungeon Master's Guide.

 

[CleverNickName]

Sorcerous Bloodlines are pretty darned cool, and add flavor to what I, personally, considered the blandest class in 3.X. How your line got its magic now affects what your character can do.

It wasn't that I thought the sorcerer was bland in 3.x, per se; it seemed to have plenty of panache. The trouble was, there just wasn't a way to make them distinctive...if you saw one sorcerer, you had seen them all. See also: barbarian, bard, monk...

And as a side note, I never did like the "magic comes from dragons" assumption that the 3.x sorc perpetuated. But maybe that's just me.

The skill system is streamlined, making NPC creation a bit easier and reducing the need to buy two or three skills (Hide and Stealth, Listen/Search/Spot) to do one thing.

This is, far and above, my favorite part of Pathfinder. My group's biggest gripe with 3.x was the amount of bookkeeping and math involved, especially where skills were concerned. It's still math-heavy, but at least it all makes sense. The streamlined skill system alone is worth the purchase price of Pathfinder, IMO.

Combat maneuvers are streamlined into one general system, reducing some of the odds and ends from the dozen or so different special maneuvers. In addition, the combat maneuver mechanic is flexible enough to allow all sorts of new stunts and maneuvers to be made up on the fly.

I have only scratched the surface of this in my game, but I am --really-- liking it. I have a rogue in my group that is always attempting something elaborate, like jumping over someone and attempting a ranged disarm while passing overhead. The CMB/CMD rules really clean up a lot of the 3.X game mechanics into a single, standardized rule that can be applied to all of these crazy situations.

One other main selling point that might or might not matter to you is the high quality of the book itself. Excellent art, good binding, high quality all around. And the one core book is easier to carry to games and sort through than the combination of the Player's Handbook and Dungeon Master's Guide.

Even the non-Pathfinder players at my FLGS say that this is one of the most beautiful gaming books they've seen in years. I agree with aIM; the artwork and materials are all top-notch. I'd also like to add that the content is well-written, organized in a logical format, and comes with an index that is actually useful. Kudos to the editors.

 

[kitsune9]

Umbran,

All Pathfinder does with 3.x is provide you more options on your character development and different mechanics on dealing with issues of grappling, tripping, etc.

If "more" is what you want out of your 3.x game, then Pathfinder is a good choice. If the rules and mechanics for grappling, trip, etc. was an annoyance for you, take a look at their mechanics and see if you can adopt it.

The other cool thing about Pathfinder is that you can modularize sections of the game. Don't like Power Attack in Pathfinder? That's okay, stick with the old version. Don't like x spell? That's fine too. The backward compatibility selling point of Pathfinder is that it's changed enough to be its own ruleset, but fits into 3.x fairly easily that you can easily switch back and forth with mechanics to form that "perfect" union.

 

[pawsplay]

1. Class rebalancing

- Fighters no longer have to scour two or three sourcebooks to get the best feats. Instead, they get Weapon Training ladled on every five levels to keep them competitive, and there are plenty of good tactical options in the core rulebook. The new skill system is also fighter friendly.
- Sorcerer bloodlines. Nuff said.
- Wizards. If you did nothing else, stealing the new rules for specialist wizards would be worth doing. The spell-like abilities they get also give them parity with sorcerers at lower levels in terms of staying power.
- Rogues. None of this waiting till 10th level to rock business.
- Paladins, rangers, and druids all closer to their archetype and simpler.
- Bards and barbarians have more flexibility in using their abilities.

2. Skills

This is another thing worth stealing. In addition to a slimmer more game-friendly skill list, the new approach to class skills makes it less punishing for a character to dabble in an outside skill or two, and prerequisites for prestige classes are less torturous.

3. Combat Maneuvers

Again, this is a sub system worth stealing on its own. Unified and simplied maneuvers system that does pretty much everything the 3.5 version does, but with less hassle in most cases.

4. It will pay divideds now

Honestly, I wasn't planning on converting my current high level 3.5 campaign but I am pretty much convinced I am going to now. It will save time every time skill ranks are spent, and every time a monster grapples. Monsters with difficult defenses won't put party members out of action. And it will save me a ton of time every time I calculate XP. I am really looking forward to ditching the CR/CL/XP table and never looking at it again.

5. The downsides are minimal

I might have to update a PrC or two, and if I want to look closely at the spell lists, some things have changed. But I don't have to care.