Elemental Immunities and Bypassing Them

[Tinker Gnome]

This could apply to either 3E, 4E, or Patfinder.

What do you think of abilties or spells that let a character bypass a creature that is normally immune to a certain element?

Such as a Feat that would let a Fireball spell harm a Red Dragon, or even a Fire Elemental. I think there might have been a Feat like that in 3E. I think it was called "Searing Spell" or something like that.

Anyways, thoughts?

 

[MarkB]

I'm not so keen on something that allows a character to simply bypass immunities - the whole point of immunity is that it's something that cannot be overcome, no matter how much extra 'heat' you bring.

Allowing a character to sidestep an immunity by altering the nature of the attack - such as via Energy Admixture - is more acceptable, especially if there is some cost involved.

Likewise, attacking a creature with a spell that temporarily disables its immunity is more acceptable.

 

[Dice4Hire]

3.5 Sandstorm has a spell that halves immunity to fire and negates all resistance to fire for a +1 to spell level.

4E. I seem to remember a Sorcerer Paragon path that can break immunities to energy.

Overall, I am not a fan to the total immunity argument, and feel it should be possible, but dropping immunity below 50% damage should not be allowed.

 

[Freakohollik]

I don't like it. The idea of super fire, just brings up the next question, who has super fire immunity? I like the energy substitution solution as it makes the most thematic sense to me and is easily to implement.

 

[Theo R Cwithin]

It seems more logical to me to just replace immunities with high resistances. Rather than overcoming an "immunity", you only have to overcome a high resistance; then the issue just goes away. So, yes Mip the fire mephit is basically unaffected by fire - but when Sultan Arzzazza the Efreeti Lord blasts him? Oh yeah, Mip hurts. Maybe he squeals with ecstatic glee, but he hurts from "too much of a good thing."

Sean K. Reynolds wrote a couple in depth essays on absolutes like this (part 1 and part 2).


oh yeah: *ding* 100 posts!

 

[ProfessorCirno]

I don''t neccisarily mind the ability to attack, say, fire resistant creatures with fire, but I think it should be more then just a feat. Make a PrC (or whatever the 4e equivilant would be :U) that lets you master an element, giving the ability to ignore resistance as it goes.

That said, I think some specific creatures should be not just resistant, but immune - or maybe even heal when they take the damage. Your guy could be super pro at fire magic, but a fire elemental is still healed by his damage.

 

[Shemeska]

Case by case situation that's heavily dependant on the flavor of the creature involved whose immunity you're trying to bypass.

For example, I don't like the idea of a feat letting you hurt a fire elemental with a fireball spell. Gross thematic disconnect there that I can't get past. But a feat that lets you bypass any magically granted fire immunity (an item, a spell, etc) that's totally cool.

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

I'm in favor of it.

It's funny, apparently there were several readings of Searing Spell. I read it as "ignore ALL resistances, and ignore immunity unless the creature had the (Fire) subtype." So it helped overcome the stupidity of easily available long-duration spells like Energy Immunity without getting just plain silly and letting you kill elementals with the stuff they're made of (but read below as I contradict myself). My group liked the Fire and Cold feats so much, we even made Acid and Lightning versions, too.

Such as a Feat that would let a Fireball spell harm a Red Dragon, or even a Fire Elemental.

As a fan of the anime OVA, Bastard!, how could I not be in favor of such a thing?

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

Case by case situation that's heavily dependant on the flavor of the creature involved whose immunity you're trying to bypass.

For example, I don't like the idea of a feat letting you hurt a fire elemental with a fireball spell. Gross thematic disconnect there that I can't get past. But a feat that lets you bypass any magically granted fire immunity (an item, a spell, etc) that's totally cool.

Nah, I can see a Fire Elemental being broken apart by a massive wave of magical fire. The fire elemental loses parts of himself to the fire. He is not burning hotter or anything, but a large part of him becomes is just washed away, like a human that is hit by a wave of water. It's not like water is burning acid to us, but we can drown in it and a wave with enough force sweeps us away.

That is primarily an argument against fire immunity, but it can also be used to reason why some resistances might be overcome or ignored.

But in the end I must say that I am not a big fan of ignoring resistances and immunities. I think that is a cheap way out and maybe a little like an "I win" button. The challenge is dealing with a monster with resistances. Can't we solve this a little more interesting then saying "I ignore it?"

I like the idea of "subverting" the resistances. If you cast a Fireball spell, you have power over fire itself. So if you hit a creature that is resistant to fire due to magic, you of course have the power to also disrupt this resistance or dispe it. If a creature is resistant to fire because it is composed of it, casting a spell giving you power over fire could give you power over the creature caught in it, too. Instead of dealing damage, you charm or dominate it for a short time!

 

[Runestar]

In theory at least, you could simply use a spell dealing a different elemental damage type. Take for instance a sorc with fireball and energy sub: cold. Few foes are immune to both fire and cold simultaneously (unless you are a red dragon skeleton). But this would require a bit of metagaming knowledge to know when to switch.

There are a few ways of working around immunities/resistances, though they are fairly hard to access (I can think of archmage's elemental mastery offhand). I think that the ability to bypass immunities might be acceptable if it was reasonable hard enough to obtain, and came with in-built limitations.

And searing spell only reduces fire immunity to "effective" 50% fire resistance. At +1 spell adjustment, it would still be less efficient than simply switching over to cone of cold. Though I suppose if your character is overwhelming focused in a single element...