Need Fighter/Rogue Gestalt

[kevin_video]

I was looking through Unearthed Arcana, and it talks about Gestalts. Forward to Dragon Magazine 310, and it has examples. Of course they're mostly of Barbarians and Rangers. What I'm looking for is the complete 20 level progression of a Fighter/Rogue. Can anyone possibly help me with that? Please?

 

[Viktyr Gehrig]

Do you want a viable 20/20 build, or a general "Fighter/Rogue" concept build, or an explanation of how a Gestalt Fighter/Rogue would look over 20 levels?

Basically, if you're not multiclassing, you can treat any particular Gestalt combination as a ridiculously overpowered single class.

A Fighter/Rogue 1, for instance, would have 10 + Con mod hitpoints, 8 + Int mod x4 skill points, +1 BAB, +2 Fort and +2 Reflex, one Fighter bonus feat, Trapfinding, and Sneak Attack +1d6.

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

A Fighter//Rogue would have full BAB, good fortitude and reflex saves, d10 HD, 8 + int skill points, all Rogue and FIghter skills as class skills, and all class features of each.

At level 20:
BAB +20/+15/+10/+5
Fort +12, Ref +12, Will +6 (base)
20d10 HD (+20 x Con mod)
Skill Points: (8 + int mod) x 23 (with int 14, you'd have 230, assuming int remained the same from level 1-20)

11 Fighter Bonus Feats
+10d6 Sneak Attack
Trapfinding
Improved Evasion
Improved Uncanny Dodge
Trap Sense +6
4 Rogue Special Abilities

 

[kevin_video]

Okay, so basically what I saw then was just an actual multiclass where every second level was a different class. One class fighter, one class rogue, one class fighter, one class rogue. That seems so powerful, but at the same time that'd be perfect for a really small group of players. Like, extremely small group.

What would multiclass best with bard, besides your standard rogue and fighter? Ranger?

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

Umm...I guess? You phrased that awkwardly. At EVERY level up, you're getting the best of each category (HD, skills points, etc...) from each side of the gestalt AND the class skills, proficiencies, and features of both. A level 1 Fighter//Rogue has a Fighter bonus feat and SA +1d6 and trapfinding. And yes, Gestalt is very nice for smaller groups, and is a lot of fun in general.

For bard...are you limited to core only? If so, sorcerer has the charisa synergy, as does Paladin (if you can snag the UA Paladin of Freedom variant so there's no alignment conflict). Barbarian is actually pretty nice, buffing with Rage and Inspire Courage.

Out of core...Warlock is a good gestalt with many classes, and uses cha somewhat. Spellthief does nothing for BAB, skills, etc...but gives more cha spellcasting and fun uses for sneak attack. Crusader gives fighter HD, armor, and BAB as well as maneuvers and some cha-based abilities. Oh, and you'd have all good saves and eventually Mettle. On that note, Hexblade's also not bad for similar reasons. If you wanted more spellcasting, the Warmage's offensive arsenal would complement your bardic spells well, is cha-based (with some benefit from int, like bard, so you could go for scholarly archetype as well), and with bardic music, could be a great ray-shooting build. Bard's use magic device and spell list helps plug the Warmage's biggest normal weakness -- extremely limited range of casting options. Beguiler is an int-based caster that benefits from charisma a bit with similar spellcasting focus to the bard.

 

[Viktyr Gehrig]

If you're core only, Ranger is your best bet for fighting (use singing for your Bardic Music and build archer) and Sorcerer for spellcasting. If you're looking to improve your skill use, you're probably better off playing a Rogue/Sorcerer instead. With any of the Sorcerer builds, break for Loremaster and Archmage as quickly as possible.

If you can break free of core, talk to your DM and see if he'll allow you to take Devoted Performer at 1st level. (Or just let you play a Paladin of Freedom or a Lawful Good Bard.) In that case, pick up the Battle Caster feat and take two levels of Divine Oracle after 5th, followed by Pious Templar.

Shugenja is another good backup option for spellcasting. Any of the four elements will shore up a weakness in the Bard's spellcasting repertoire, with Air giving you divination and transportation, Water giving you healing, Fire giving you direct damage (one of the orders even gives you fireball) and Earth... well, Earth's got good stuff but it's a mixed bag. Divine Oracle is still recommended-- take it all the way this time-- and unlike in the Paladin build, it won't cost you anything except a waste of a feat slot.

Another spellcasting build, if you're willing to give up higher level Bardic Music, is to build against Ranger and go Bard 6/Lyric Thaumaturge 4/Sublime Chord 10.

For more of a magical "troubleshooter" instead of a dedicated caster, StreamOfTheSky's Warlock idea is good. Marshal 1/Warlock 8/Mindbender 1/Virtuoso 10//Bard 20. Use Motivate Charisma to rocket your Perform and Diplomacy checks into the stratosphere, pick up the Mindsight feat, and focus your spells and invocations around interaction with NPCs and dealing with physical obstacles and unusual opponents.

 

[Viktyr Gehrig]

Spotted the problem. The class progressions in Dragon #310? They're not for Gestalt characters, because they predate Unearthed Arcana. Those are standard multiclassing progressions, where the character picks a single class at each level.

Are you just now switching from 1e or 2e, or even from 4e?

 

[Aus_Snow]

Indeed. . .

Gestalt Characters is a totally optional variant system of levelling up for PCs (and perhaps NPCs, if the DM so decrees) - an alternative that does nothing to change multiclassing per se, rather than being interchangeable with it. Most 3e campaigns in the world, note, will *not* be using gestalt rules.

Basically, gestalt is a bit like dual-classing from earlier editions of D&D (e.g., AD&D 1e). Not the same, but yeah, the resemblance is there.

As for Fighter 10 / Rogue 10 being so powerful. . . no. Not really. Try Rogue 20, and you'd be better off most of the time (Sneak Attack +10d6? Yum!) Seriously. For that matter, Fighter needs some kind of mid- and high-level boosts, otherwise straight Fighter (or, in fact, anything over Fighter 4) sucks, compared with many other (but not all. . .) classes.

If you want advice about powerful mutliclass combos, try the WotC char-op boards, if they're still up and running. Or, start specific threads on that, right here.

Multiclassing in general is pretty wonky. Spellcaster + non-spellcaster is kinda broken, and not in a good way. And so on. But you mightn't be wanting to hear about all that. . .

 

[Viktyr Gehrig]

Multiclassing in general is pretty wonky. Spellcaster + non-spellcaster is kinda broken, and not in a good way. And so on. But you mightn't be wanting to hear about all that. . .

Spellcaster + Spellcaster is even worse.

I saw an elegant solution on the Paizo boards though, as a replacement for things like the Mystic Theurge. One feat that functionally replaces all of the Ascetic/Devoted/Stalker feats from Complete Adventurer and Complete Scoundrel.

Pick two base classes you have levels in. (Or two base classes whose levels are within 1 of each other, if you want to be strict.) Your levels in these two classes stack for the purpose of determining level based effects (such as class level prerequisite, caster level or class ability DC), and one half of your level in each class stacks with the other class for determining class features, including special abilities and spells per day.

In other words, a Cleric 10/Wizard 10 with this feat would have a caster level in both classes of 20, would cast spells in both classes as a 15th level caster, turn undead as a 15th level Cleric and have the familiar of a 15th level Wizard.

A Fighter 10/Rogue 10 would have 8d6 sneak attack, all the other nifty tricks of a Rogue 15, eight bonus Fighter feats, and would count as Fighter 20 for the prerequisites of everything in the Weapon Specialization chain.

Mileage may vary on allowing this feat to be taken multiple times for different classes, or for allowing characters to use this feat with classes more than 1 level apart. One variant I saw was that for every level of difference, subtract 1 from the effective level of the lower class, which I thought was particularly elegant.

Of course, the other thing to consider is that it did not, under any circumstances, apply to Prestige Classes.