Again, this is why I think 4e and Dark Sun are completely at odds with each other. 4e demands you tell him where it goes. Dark Sun says "They aren't in this setting."
Darksun Teasers
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Again, this is why I think 4e and Dark Sun are completely at odds with each other. 4e demands you tell him where it goes. Dark Sun says "They aren't in this setting."
LightPhoenix
First Post
Getting it out of the way: Firefox 3.5/Windows 7, grey text on white background.
Lizards are the predominant fauna in a desert setting. So Dragonborn don't come from dragons, they come from lizards. Easy fix, good fit.
What I think is going on here, and this is only my personal thought, is that we have many ardent fans of Dark Sun on the boards. Heck, I'm one of them. We also have people who are not fans of 4E, in which case I don't know why they're posting in this thread, since it's about the 4E version. That's neither here nor there though.
With regards to the people who are willing to give Dark Sun 4E a try (and I'm assuming that's everyone in the thread, as per above), I think it's a disservice to chalk the strong reactions up to hysteria. I think that some fans are not angry, but afraid that Dark Sun 4E is not going to be to their liking, for whatever reason, and that is being projected onto everything we're hearing about the setting, minor or not. It's not terribly fair... after all, we know next to nothing about the 4E version, other than it's coming out. Certainly no one has read it, and no one is involved in it that is posting here.
However, I wouldn't say it's unjustified... after all, 2E and 4E are vastly different creatures. There will almost certainly be some give and take... it's not like Eberron, which was developed on the cusp of 4E. Like Mouseferatu, I think that there will be something in the middle, especially regarding mechanics.
For example, they could state a ban all Divine classes and all Leaders to reduce healing (though I've come to realize there are no WotC ninjas that come to bash down your door). What's more likely is to reduce healing surge values, or to re-flavor the Divine classes (except maybe Clerics) and replace the "Word" powers from Leaders. That's just a spitball, five second look at it.
I agree that the reactions need not be so strong though. It could end up being a giant failure... or it could end being the best version of the campaign so far. We just don't know. That's why it's as important to keep an open mind as it is to be critical.
As Aristotle would put it, phronimos, on all sides.
Lizards are the predominant fauna in a desert setting. So Dragonborn don't come from dragons, they come from lizards. Easy fix, good fit.
Hadrian the Builder said:
What I think is going on here, and this is only my personal thought, is that we have many ardent fans of Dark Sun on the boards. Heck, I'm one of them. We also have people who are not fans of 4E, in which case I don't know why they're posting in this thread, since it's about the 4E version. That's neither here nor there though.
With regards to the people who are willing to give Dark Sun 4E a try (and I'm assuming that's everyone in the thread, as per above), I think it's a disservice to chalk the strong reactions up to hysteria. I think that some fans are not angry, but afraid that Dark Sun 4E is not going to be to their liking, for whatever reason, and that is being projected onto everything we're hearing about the setting, minor or not. It's not terribly fair... after all, we know next to nothing about the 4E version, other than it's coming out. Certainly no one has read it, and no one is involved in it that is posting here.
However, I wouldn't say it's unjustified... after all, 2E and 4E are vastly different creatures. There will almost certainly be some give and take... it's not like Eberron, which was developed on the cusp of 4E. Like Mouseferatu, I think that there will be something in the middle, especially regarding mechanics.
For example, they could state a ban all Divine classes and all Leaders to reduce healing (though I've come to realize there are no WotC ninjas that come to bash down your door). What's more likely is to reduce healing surge values, or to re-flavor the Divine classes (except maybe Clerics) and replace the "Word" powers from Leaders. That's just a spitball, five second look at it.
I agree that the reactions need not be so strong though. It could end up being a giant failure... or it could end being the best version of the campaign so far. We just don't know. That's why it's as important to keep an open mind as it is to be critical.
As Aristotle would put it, phronimos, on all sides.
Obryn
Hero
Really? I think it's more like, "They are in this setting, but they are MORE METAL! And they have better stats! Also, you can play a bug or a bird or a dinosaur, so a humanoid with horns seems pretty tame!"
-O
Pseudonym
Ivan Alias
I'd be surprised if they didn't retcon them in. We'll also see shifters, deva and goliath too. The idea seems to be that if it is exists in 4e, there needs to be a place for it in every setting, even if it wasn't there in a previous incarnation, such as with Eberron. The key is making them seem as if they'd always been there, even when older fans of the setting know they hadn't. I'm cautiously optimistic.
Mistwell
Crusty Old Meatwad
For reference, here is the paragraph you are referring to:
You asked "Why" he would insert Primordials and the Elemental Chaos when such is not necessary. But, that's not what he said. He speculated as to whether ONE primordial created the world originally, and what happened to that Primordial if that's what happened, and could he use a Primordial to explain the silt sea which DOES NOT MAKE SENSE in the original 2e explanation without some sort of magical explanation added.
The original 2e version never explains who created the world, what exactly happened long ago to make it this way, or why the silt sea stays as it is despite the fact that it defies the laws of physics. Yet, the original set does offer up spirits of various elements, that are worshiped, and which do grant magical divine spells. Who are those "spirits" and why are they just elemental spirits and why are they able to grant spells when normally "spirits" cannot grant divine spells?
So the "why" is in the text he wrote. The 2e version leaves questions open, and he is considering answering those questions with 4e elements that naturally answer the questions. That's a GOOD thing, not a bad thing.
If you look for a train wreck, you will find it. Because if you look at things in a negative light, you can succeed at shoehorning them into a negative. That's true of any remake of any kind. But, if you look for positives, you will find those as well.
Me, I am going to wait and see. So far, I am fine with the potential changes mentioned (and again, he's just speculating about things he should in fact speculate about).
Mistwell
Crusty Old Meatwad
Not only was there nothing ruling it out, but it actually makes a lot of sense. SOMETHING created the world, SOMETHING gave the elemental spirits much more power to connect with humanoids.
4e FR - Realms shattering event & advancing the timeline
4e Eberron - Retcon 4e changes into the setting
4e Dark Sun - Reboot
Obryn
Hero
Well, as someone else pointed out, the setting is only barely explored, at least officially. (There are enterprising souls on the WotC boards busily mapping out the rest of Athas, but it's a product of their ingenuity, not of TSR/WotC.)
We have a lot of detail on the western tablelands - that is, the region west of the Sea of Silt, between it and the Ringing Mountains.
We have some detail right outside of that, including the Forest and the Dragon's Crown Mountains.
We also know a little about the Sea of Silt itself, including the city of Ur Draxa.
In the latter-era Dark Sun materials, we also have details on stuff to the north - the Jagged Cliffs region and the Last Sea.
Finally, to the West of all of this is apparently the Kreen Empire on the Crimson Savannah. Given the Kreen propensity to eat their conquered foes, it's probably not peopled by anything else.
However, nothing beyond this has been officially detailed. We know there's stuff on the other side of the Sea of Silt, and possibly more Sorcerer-Kings, but we have no (official) idea what. We don't have any idea what's to the South, by and large, either. (IIRC, there's something about a black plain, but I don't remember if that's a canonical source or not.)
Athas is a big place - an entire planet, even - and saying there could be no other races anywhere else is a bit of a stretch.
-O
Crothian
First Post
I just want to know if we are going to get Halflings coming back in a comet. 
The problem with Dark Sun is people like just a small part of it and want to disregard the rest and treat just what they like at sacred text. I love Dark Sun and have most of the books. I've been rereading all the novels as well. There is a lot of crap in this setting. I'm more worried about Wizards keeping the silly stuff then I am on how Teiflings will fit into the world.
The problem with Dark Sun is people like just a small part of it and want to disregard the rest and treat just what they like at sacred text. I love Dark Sun and have most of the books. I've been rereading all the novels as well. There is a lot of crap in this setting. I'm more worried about Wizards keeping the silly stuff then I am on how Teiflings will fit into the world.
