D&D 4E Two Camps of 4e Players (a rant)

[ExploderWizard]

An n+10 encounter in the campaign at all? Why play the game just to kill off the PCs (unless of course all of the players want to start new PCs)?

The contents and possibilities within a given campaign setting do not equal malicious intent to kill off the party.

Scaling the world around the PCs completely gives the campaign a Truman Show feeling of fake that is unsatisfying IMHO.

 

[ExploderWizard]

Make your monster knowledge check or die in a horrible unescapable encounter gruesomely played out .... make your saving throw or crumple to the effects of a death spell.

Both allowing a single die roll to dramatically dominate the game flow.

There is a connection.

Why unescapable? If the party is deciding whether or not to confront a beastie, rolls a knowledge check and fails, and decides to attack anyway how is that a save or die? Greed, haste, or pure stupidity don't count as save or die.

 

[Ryujin]

The contents and possibilities within a given campaign setting do not equal malicious intent to kill off the party.

Scaling the world around the PCs completely gives the campaign a Truman Show feeling of fake that is unsatisfying IMHO.

That's not necessarily so, when the different tiers function on vastly different levels. That massive dragon may have been in Waterdeep the day before the party arrived in town, but today he was seen over Cormyr. The Eladrin witch sacrificed 10 villagers in Loudwater last week, but she walked into the side of a tree and disappeared into the Feywild an hour later.

 

[ExploderWizard]

That's not necessarily so, when the different tiers function on vastly different levels. That massive dragon may have been in Waterdeep the day before the party arrived in town, but today he was seen over Cormyr. The Eladrin witch sacrificed 10 villagers in Loudwater last week, but she walked into the side of a tree and disappeared into the Feywild an hour later.

You seem to be describing teaser adventure hooks which are a different ball of wax.

If I simply populate a mountainous region with some humanoid tribes, a dragon, a human town and a hill giant fort then I have not tried to kill the 1st level PC's entering that area.

Assuming the above outlined population, if I had the PC's arrive in town and get approached by the townsfolk ( hats in hand) asking the PC's for aid against the giants who come to raid then a case can be made for me trying to get the party killed. If the townsfolk instead ask for assistance with the troubles coming from the local goblin tribe then I have not.

If the players wish to ignore the goblins and instead try and get into the hill giant fort then any resulting deaths will most likely be the players fault.

 

[Ryujin]

Call them teasers, if you like. I refer to the world functioning on several different levels, that need not interact.

 

[Garthanos]

Why unescapable? If the party is deciding whether or not to confront a beastie, rolls a knowledge check and fails, and decides to attack anyway how is that a save or die? Greed, haste, or pure stupidity don't count as save or die.

Presumptions players may play to "act like heros" ... No greed, implied urgency of the situation, and information level...that is ignorance not stupidity. And you as DM I hold responsible for that ignorance. (even if you hide it behind a monster knowledge check)

 

[ExploderWizard]

Call them teasers, if you like. I refer to the world functioning on several different levels, that need not interact.

They interact when the PC's become aware of them. An event/hook that happens and attracts the attention of the PC's who then find out that the opposition outclasses them by such a large margin seems worse to me than the mere inclusion of a lair in the region. That kind of different level functioning makes the PC's look puny and helpless.

 

[invokethehojo]

I think that too often people don't realize that metagame knowledge can go both ways. Your character has spent every minute of this life in side that fantasy world, he has trained for years to hone his fighting skills, and he has honed his senses so that he makes good judgements (otherwise he would be dead)... meanwhile your sitting at a table eating doritos and pizza. All the DM has to say is that, "your characters years of experience tells him this looks like its probably too much for him to handle".

is it the coolest way to solve the problem, no, but it does solve the problem, and it still gives players the choice to disregard the info and do it anyway. Players have metagame knowledge the characters don't, but characters have in-world perspective the players don't, use that to your advantage when DM'ing.

 

[Ryujin]

They interact when the PC's become aware of them. An event/hook that happens and attracts the attention of the PC's who then find out that the opposition outclasses them by such a large margin seems worse to me than the mere inclusion of a lair in the region. That kind of different level functioning makes the PC's look puny and helpless.

Because they are?

 

[ExploderWizard]

Presumptions players may play to "act like heros" ... No greed, implied urgency of the situation, and information level...that is ignorance not stupidity. And you as DM I hold responsible for that ignorance. (even if you hide it behind a monster knowledge check)

I would expect heroic acts from adventurers. Is it heroic to face danger of an unknown power to help those in need?-YES. Is it heroic to charge headlong into an unknown situation for selfish reasons?-generally not.

Act like heroes does not mean act like morons.

The DM is responsible if the PC's are pitted against a force with few or bad options available to them such as leave the peasant child to be eaten by the worg or charge in to a suicide combat. I think we can agree that this would be a poor DM decision.

The players are responsible for any trouble they seek out on thier own. If a 1st level party just decides to look for, and enter a large and powerful dragon's lair because they think the risk is worth the loot then the fatalities are the fault of the players.