D&D 4E Two Camps of 4e Players (a rant)

As long as the players are aware that the Dragon is a force that will absolutely kill them, I think this is fine. I've had similar occurances in the past.

But, there is a fine line here. PCs are adventurers and explorers. Telling them to "not go look in that cave cause there's a dragon there" is just putting the carrot in front of them and in this case, it is the fault of the DM for the TPK.

No is telling them not to go. The PC's are not children and the campaign world is not a playpen. The point is that at this stage of the campaign, such a dragon represents an almost certainly lethal danger.

Telling them that death is certain as the DM is throwing down a bigger challenge than just presenting the world and letting the players make thier own informed decisions.
 

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eamon

Explorer
Information gets passed along through gameplay.

This information, in my experience, tends to be insufficient. If the DM really just plops down a random encounter without thought, even if he describes what's in it, the players won't know whether they can deal with it.

The problem is, you really need to know the levels of the opponents you're facing in order to estimate the difficulty of an encounter. And that's just a starting point, you'd obviously need to know whether there's any solo's and elites, and perhaps even information about the strengths and weaknesses of the opponent.

See, when you describe the local warlord as a pretty serious threat, with a record of nasty gladiatorial combat - what level would he be? Is he 15th level? 4th level? 10th? It's really hard to say based on that description. 4e commonly has monster types that come in a whole variety of levels. Similar monsters, all sounding nasty and threatening, just one of em is 10 levels higher. That kind of level distinction is truly an execution when the PC's misjudge. Is a Stormstone Fury more dangerous than a Fell Taint Pulsar - and how would the PCs tell the difference?

The DM has three options.
- He can ensure that all combats are level-appropriate and that the rare overwhelming encounter is clearly warned against (read: drop obvious hints that that Adult Red Dragon there could roast you all alive).
- He can describe the difficulty of encounters in-game, but will need to describe difficulty relative to the PCs. This is a bit awkward, because it really makes no sense that the villagers describing their tyrannical warlord (who's probably overwhelming to them) would speak of him as a hard but defeatable. It becomes even less reasonable once you include info about group size and composition. The warlord and a few minions may be doable, but the warlord, a few skirmishers and a soldier may not be; D&D combat is fairly precisely balanced, levels vary wildly, but just going 1 or 2 encounter level up can turn a hard encounter into a laughable unbeatable one.
- He can in some fashion reveal the game-mechanical strength of the enemies; or at least indicate overall strength. This is weird narratively, and though I think I'd like to use this approach, I don't know how you'd do this. How do the player's judge an opponents level? What's the in-game motivation?

Think of it like rankings in team sports: if you just describe players as "fast and a good team player" and another as "great technically, with a strong XYZ", its really hard to guess the outcome of a match between two teams. On the other hand, if you know in which league of play a team is in and their rank within that, you've got a pretty good indication - teams from differing leagues are liable to outclass each other. It's that kind of information which is hard to describe qualitatively. D&D has a vast diversity of ability, far broader than that of "real life" - yet, we hope that PCs can judge the difficulty of encounters using inexact qualitative terms that aren't even sufficiently precise in "real life".
 
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AllisterH

First Post
Unless you're facing a monster that is *significantly* above your Tier, the PCs _DO_ have the option of running away in 4e since a monster won't one-shot a character.

Thus, my players will ask (Or I describe the monster being bloodied - "the X seems to be wounded from that last atack but looks like it is gathering its strength") and they know whether or not they can take a monster in combat.

If they're hitting the monster with multiple dailies and it still isn't bloodied, they know well enough to get the hell out of dodge....
 

The problem is, you really need to know the levels of the opponents you're facing in order to estimate the difficulty of an encounter. And that's just a starting point, you'd obviously need to know whether there's any solo's and elites, and perhaps even information about the strengths and weaknesses of the opponent.

Do you? Does everything in the game world need to have a Warcraft-like name tag over its head with name level and role?

, and though I think I'd like to use this approach, I don't know how you'd do this. How do the player's judge an opponents level? What's the in-game motivation?

Its easy to do. The in-game motivation for such encounters would be risk vs reward. Thinking outside the game rules helps. If your party is traveling in the wilderness and stumbles on some random beastie do you fight it just because its there or do you try and find a way to conserve precious resources even if you think you can win?
 


If they're hitting the monster with multiple dailies and it still isn't bloodied, they know well enough to get the hell out of dodge....

What? You mean base strategy on real time factors such as apparent effectiveness of your offense vs relative effectiveness of the opponents offense? Thats crazy talk! ;)

[End sarcasm]
 

KarinsDad

Adventurer
Do you? Does everything in the game world need to have a Warcraft-like name tag over its head with name level and role?

I agree that this should not be the case, but on the other hand, telling the PCs that there is a dragon somewhere will often by definition also indicate that the dragon can be handled by the PCs.

There are many lesser threat Dragons in 4E.

So, the DM is responsible for also giving additional information such as:

Farmer: "The Dragon was as big as my house. Honest! It looked right over the eaves."

Most descriptive information comes from the DM.

It's not about holding their hand. It's about introducing enough information so that the players can make an informed decision instead of springing a monster on them that is 10 levels higher than them and saying "Well, I told you that it was a DRAGON."
 

It's not about holding their hand. It's about introducing enough information so that the players can make an informed decision instead of springing a monster on them that is 10 levels higher than them and saying "Well, I told you that it was a DRAGON."

Certainly. The sight of it flying overhead, with a minotaur clutched in its claw as helpless as a damsel should be a good start. If the players ask around then they may get more details. Not too many though, just a few sightings to confirm its size and existence. Too many tellings of its exploits would make it seem like an immediate threat to be dealt with. :D
 

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