D&D 4E Two Camps of 4e Players (a rant)

[Tony Vargas]

Huh... it sounds like your'e complicating things for yourself. So what if you need to write down the text of your powers? Is memorizing Xd6 for Fireball, where X equals your level, any more difficult than simply figuring it out before the session and writing it down?

Actually, if you started with 1e it is, just a bit harder to remember that a fireball now does 3d6+INT and is burst 3 (and that, rather than increasing it as you level, you later swap it out for Combustion or something), than it is to remember that a Fireball does 1d6/level and has a 20' radius, base, roughly conforming to fill 33,000 cubic feet if that radius is not available due to the restricted space of a dungeon made up mostly of 10x10 corridors. Why? Because when you're 14, your mind is like a steel trap - and by the time you're 41, it's rusted shut.

OK, that's just exageration for the sake of the metaphor, but it really is easier to remember random trivial details of a game you loved when you were a teenager, than it is to remember details of one you played last week - even if you still love it. Just the nature of human memory, I guess.

 

[DracoSuave]

I still have a lot of the 2nd edition tables memorized. Someone came up to me and said '2nd edition had no errors' to which I blurted out 'Actually, the spell's per day for the priest class was changed, where the progression which was far to steep for mid-range spells was smoothed out to be closer to the wizard's more even progression. Also, Bards, for the same amount of XP, cast higher level spells than a wizard.'

And other trivia like that.

 

[Victim]

Actually, if you started with 1e it is, just a bit harder to remember that a fireball now does 3d6+INT and is burst 3 (and that, rather than increasing it as you level, you later swap it out for Combustion or something), than it is to remember that a Fireball does 1d6/level and has a 20' radius, base, roughly conforming to fill 33,000 cubic feet if that radius is not available due to the restricted space of a dungeon made up mostly of 10x10 corridors. Why? Because when you're 14, your mind is like a steel trap - and by the time you're 41, it's rusted shut.

OK, that's just exageration for the sake of the metaphor, but it really is easier to remember random trivial details of a game you loved when you were a teenager, than it is to remember details of one you played last week - even if you still love it. Just the nature of human memory, I guess.

Maybe it's just me, but the game in which you solve for the radius of a hemispherical volume of 33k feet to get the size of a fireball cast against the ground seems a lot more complex than one where you print out the powers your character has.

 

[burntgerbil]

Maybe it's just me, but the game in which you solve for the radius of a hemispherical volume of 33k feet to get the size of a fireball cast against the ground seems a lot more complex than one where you print out the powers your character has.

It also seems like suicide for a game publisher to try to make nowadays.

It is also always worth noting what I say to my grognard friend - There is nothing intrinsically wrong with the old systems. They are classics. Lots of people love them and some people still use them. You're not going to nab any new players with 2nd edition in 2009.

But - you need to lure in new customers to buy more new books. That's where the new edition comes in. It (arguably) tries to bring new blood into the fold - 3.5 just wasn't getting new players.

I would love to see a full-color deluxe 40 dollar or so 1e PHB & DMG by wizards today. Just as sort of one-offs. They'd have to seriously have some top notch art direction and that bad-ass orange spine. But I'd be up for that.


But this thread as a whole has become a good deal sidetracked from my original topic. I guess I'll attempt to try to bring it back around, though. Older editions required less intensive rules knowledge and more on-the-fly creative thinking from tournament worthy DM's. I'll never forget learning (From playing in a tourney) at a young age that jumping into water while surrounded by concussive blasts is a bad idea. I feel that 4e DM'ing requires less of a storyteller and more of a referee at times.

Where in your opinion should Wizard's place their priority on for DM's as ambassadors of the great game to neophytes ?

Need they be Kings of Rules ?
Should they embody :
Embassadors of Fun ?
Tellers of the Story ?
Or
Profit Enablers ?


Or, is the current status of very loose and very poor presentation of official play enough to let the game survive ? Is Wizards killing itself by missing one huge promotion (and profit) opportunity after another ? Is Hasbro killing Wizards?

Whaddya think ?

 

[Tony Vargas]

OK, I've tried to write this three times now, and it's surprisingly hard to keep from insulting everyone who games (myself included - myself especially, guess I'm in a bad mood).

Suffice it to say that selling to gamers is not a high-growth, high-margin industry, and you can't expect a lot of effort to be put into growing the business. Gamers are a unique and rare breed, I think they're born more than recruited. I don't think there's anything you could do to bring many more people into the hobby. Those who are suited to it will find thier way to it, no matter how obscure it may be, those who aren't could not be induced to by any means.

 

[Dice4Hire]

We (gamers) will find gaming no matter what?

Nah, do not see it.

Maybe there is some sport I'm super good at, or some niche were I'd be happier, but I never saw it, so I'm perfectly happy as a gamer. If I had never experienced gaming, I'm sure I would be happy doing something else.

 

[Garthanos]

But - you need to lure in new customers to buy more new books. That's where the new edition comes in.

Some of the new blood is old blood nicely preserved and more powerful than ever thank you ..which has been lured in by fixing of real issues that drove some grognards like myself away ... In other words they are bringing people who played the game back .. and I bring new blood like my son and niece in to the game... and spend more money now on it than I ever did then...

 

[burntgerbil]

It's just frustrating running a game for 6-8 new-to-the-game players who discover that they love the game and not seeing more done to pull in new players.

This doesn't have to be a niche product. It could be a mass market product, it just needs a push.

 

[poolboydeluxe]

This doesn't have to be a niche product. It could be a mass market product, it just needs a push.

For Tabletop RPGs to become mass market, there needs to be a cultural shift of sorts. Computer RPGs/MMOs are mass market now because of the medium in which they exist. Books, storytelling, dice, all of those are not part of our recreational make-up right now.

I'm cool with gaming being a niche product. I am a rabid sports fan (as mass market as you can get) and a 20-year veteran of the punk rock scene (which I saw first hand go from niche to mainstream), so I see the merits and flaws of being niche and being mainstream. As long as good product is coming out (either from the company or from the fans), I don't need everyone around me playing. Just ask a lot of old school punks--progress ain't what it used to be.

 

[DracoSuave]

Or, is the current status of very loose and very poor presentation of official play enough to let the game survive ? Is Wizards killing itself by missing one huge promotion (and profit) opportunity after another ? Is Hasbro killing Wizards?

Well, given that Hasbro is currently a profitable company, and that Wizards' revenue and sales have been on a general positive upswing since fourth edition came out, I think they're doing fine.

And as well, RPGA has been made -more- accessible, pretty much -anyone- can grab and go now, and the paperwork required makes pick-up games a lot better and easier for people to do. Lots of venues that would -never- have RPGAd in the past are playing LFR without any problems.

Not to mention Game Days, the Delves, there's a lot more opportunity to organized play at the grassroots level, and -that- is the level that attracts business. Tournament level play doesn't attract new players to the game. Hell, it barely even attracts -old- players.

As well, making their previous 'intro to D&D product', Keep on the Shadowfell available for free online really aids in the 'let's try this product out' department. And speaking of, teasing previews and such on the website is a good way to a) develop subscription revenue and b) sell future books.

I think in terms of trying to draw new players in, other companies could look to their example. Perhaps not so many -other- companies would be going under so much.

What's White Wolf doing these days? I don't know, because they're not trying to reach me as effectively as the 'evil Hasbro ran' Wizards of the Coast is.