Spells which were not properly nerved...

[frankthedm]

Frank, you're aware that Amplify is a Bard level 1 spell in Spell Compendium p. 10, right?

Nope, first time i suggested that spell was in this thread IIRC.

http://www.enworld.org/forum/d-d-3rd-edition-rules/181997-bardic-music-range.html

Then here

http://www.enworld.org/forum/d-d-3rd-edition-rules/197134-questions-silence-spell.html

I might have seen the official spell but not really noticed it.

 

[Voadam]

I've never heard of Blasphemy as being even close to broken before...and no it doesn't look to be changed that I can see.

The only Core Demon/Devils that have Blasphemy as an SLA are Balors (CL 20) & Pit Fiend (CL 18), both fixed. They are both CR 20, so realistically you shouldn't be encountering them utnil you are in the 18-20 level range (in a normal game). At which point the effects from Blasphemy are either negligible (i.e. Dazed for the Pit Fiend's and Weakend/Dazed for the Balor's) or easily avoidable: DC 25 Will save to negate Daze and 1/2 the Str penalty... plus SR applies.

Once you should be faciing it as a creature SLA you shouldn't have to really even worry about it, let alone face a TPK from it...

Hezrou CR 11, 3/day blasphemy at caster level 13.

 

[Ifni]

Hezrou CR 11, 3/day blasphemy at caster level 13.

Yeah, I've run into this with a L8 party (in an RPGA game, no less). There was much complaining.

I've also encountered CL20+ Blasphemy at L15, on half-fiends, advanced fiends, fiends with feats to bump their CL, evil clerics with beads of karma, and once a sublime chord ur-priest. By L15 you have a lot more options to deal with it, but it's still one of the nastier things to throw at a party.

This is one of the first spells I checked in Pathfinder. I approve of the fix. Adding saves makes it much less of a win-button - in 3.5 none of the effects except the banishment had saves attached.

EDIT: To anyone who doubts it was a win-button in 3.5, note that the no-save Daze denies the entire party their actions for a round. One bad guy (equal to or higher level than the PCs) uses Blasphemy repeatedly, the other one beats up the PCs. If you don't have some countermeasure that stops the first Blasphemy, or something that you can do while dazed, this is a fast road to a TPK.

 

[amethal]

Hezrou CR 11, 3/day blasphemy at caster level 13.

In the Epic level DCC adventure (can't remember the name) there is a 40 HD Half-fiend that has no fiendish qualities about its appearance whatsoever and does not appear hostile when you meet him.

As written, the party wanders over and he kills them all with a blasphemy spell (characters will be about 21-24th level). The DM laughed at that idea, imagined the whole party lying dead in as anti-climatic a way as possible, and then had the monster do something else instead.

 

[Salthorae]

EDIT: To anyone who doubts it was a win-button in 3.5, note that the no-save Daze denies the entire party their actions for a round. One bad guy (equal to or higher level than the PCs) uses Blasphemy repeatedly, the other one beats up the PCs. If you don't have some countermeasure that stops the first Blasphemy, or something that you can do while dazed, this is a fast road to a TPK.

why is your DM spamming Blasphemies at your party? Sounds like he's running a video game BBEG and not a villain with any depth to it...

I totally missed the Hezrou when I was looking at the Demons/Devils in the SRD, good catch. I stand by my statement that it's not a game buster though. I mean if you're fighting a Hezrou, there is supposed to be 4 11th level party members vs 1 Hezrou. So you'll take 1 round of no actions, but you still defend yourself at full AC and saves etc. and the Hezrou uses his standard action to use his Blasphemy SLA... which leaves no room for anything other than moving or quickened actions (which base monster has none of) so what does he accomplish with Blasphemy? Nothing. If this Hezrou has buddies, then it's not a CR11 encounter and will justifiably be on the verge of untenable for 4 11th level PCs

Also if you're encountering NPC's that have Karma Beads boosting their Caster Level, it probably means that the DM is not using NPC wealth to create their characters, so it should probably be a higher CR encounter, and thus either garner you more XP or not be encountered until you're higher level.

And any DM that is putting level 15 PCs against monsters/npcs with Caster Levels 20+ is asking for TPK regardless of whether they use blasphemy against the party...

Blasphemy is really only unbalanced when used improperly by a DM and I don't think it needed the cushoning it received with Pathfinder

EDIT: How's it hangin Felix?

 

[Voadam]

why is your DM spamming Blasphemies at your party? Sounds like he's running a video game BBEG and not a villain with any depth to it...

I totally missed the Hezrou when I was looking at the Demons/Devils in the SRD, good catch. I stand by my statement that it's not a game buster though. I mean if you're fighting a Hezrou, there is supposed to be 4 11th level party members vs 1 Hezrou. So you'll take 1 round of no actions, but you still defend yourself at full AC and saves etc. and the Hezrou uses his standard action to use his Blasphemy SLA... which leaves no room for anything other than moving or quickened actions (which base monster has none of) so what does he accomplish with Blasphemy? Nothing. If this Hezrou has buddies, then it's not a CR11 encounter and will justifiably be on the verge of untenable for 4 11th level PCs

Also if you're encountering NPC's that have Karma Beads boosting their Caster Level, it probably means that the DM is not using NPC wealth to create their characters, so it should probably be a higher CR encounter, and thus either garner you more XP or not be encountered until you're higher level.

And any DM that is putting level 15 PCs against monsters/npcs with Caster Levels 20+ is asking for TPK regardless of whether they use blasphemy against the party...

Blasphemy is really only unbalanced when used improperly by a DM and I don't think it needed the cushoning it received with Pathfinder

EDIT: How's it hangin Felix?

I think you need to read the spell and monster again.

It casts its SLAs at caster level 13. It is only a CR 11.

If four 13 level characters face 1 hezrou alone (EL of party level -2) then they are only dazed for one round.

If four 11 level characters face 1 hezrou alone (EL of party level) they are dazed plus weakened. (remember that weakened is 2d6 no save penalty to str, not ability damage that can be cured).

If four 8th level characters face 1 hezrou alone (EL of party level +3) they are dazed plus weakened plus paralyzed. (No save paralysis for 1d10 minutes.)

EL of party level +3 is well within the range for suggested encounters.

Any nonevil creature within the area of a blasphemy spell suffers the following ill effects.
HD Effect
Equal to caster level Dazed
Up to caster level -1 Weakened, dazed
Up to caster level -5 Paralyzed, weakened, dazed
Up to caster level -10 Killed, paralyzed, weakened, dazed

The effects are cumulative and concurrent.

No saving throw is allowed against these effects.
Dazed

The creature can take no actions for 1 round, though it defends itself normally.
Weakened

The creature’s Strength score decreases by 2d6 points for 2d4 rounds.
Paralyzed

The creature is paralyzed and helpless for 1d10 minutes.

Also remember that hezrou frequency is

Solitary or gang (2-4)

which bumps up the EL by I forget, is it 2 per doubling of numbers?

 

[Starbuck_II]

I think you need to read the spell and monster again.

It casts its SLAs at caster level 13. It is only a CR 11.

If four 13 level characters face 1 hezrou alone (EL of party level -2) then they are only dazed for one round.

If four 11 level characters face 1 hezrou alone (EL of party level) they are dazed plus weakened. (remember that weakened is 2d6 no save penalty to str, not ability damage that can be cured).

If four 8th level characters face 1 hezrou alone (EL of party level +3) they are dazed plus weakened plus paralyzed. (No save paralysis for 1d10 minutes.)

EL of party level +3 is well within the range for suggested encounters.



Also remember that hezrou frequency is which bumps up the EL by I forget, is it 2 per doubling of numbers?

Worst: it can use it 3/day.
And the recommended tactics: use Blasphemy first. Next you are Naeseated or sickened (if make save) within 10 ft of it.

So worst case scenerio for level 11 party: Blasphemy, move up to 10 feet of party. Next blast them with a spell like Choas hammer/Unholy Blight (sickened means -2 saves). That assumes they even make the naesated save DC 24 is high (unlikely wizards will).
Fighters are weakened (str penalty), sickened, and damaged (I'm assuming they make the DC 24 Fort save). Not a good way to fight a battle.

Worst case 8th level: coup de Grace 4 times.

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

I blame the fact that WotC and Paizo had a hard-on for demons and made them insanely broken in general, more than I blame the Blasphemy spell itself for that Hezrou example. Did you ever notice the Vrock's no-save spores bs? Or how half the demons are "tacticians" despite the fact that fighting in strict regiments and formations or even having any particular unit cohesiveness is the exact opposite of the flavor text for demons?

--Signed a still pissed off LE devil-lover

EDIT: And those jerks get an extra resistance, too!

 

[Votan]

why is your DM spamming Blasphemies at your party? Sounds like he's running a video game BBEG and not a villain with any depth to it...

I think that any creature with high intelligence and such an ability to just drop opponents (*cough* Pit Fiend *cough*) would use it on a group of opponents.

Equally bad spell design is how it completely stops working above the CL of the caster. Unlike sleep, where you can make a judgement, every casting is a gamble against "no effect".

Also note that things like cleric domains (e.g. the evil domain) can raise caster level so things that appear reasonable can get out of hand . . .

 

[Ferrety]

Aah, blasphemy - the spell which made me realize that even Paizo's adventures are not all that they could be. Going bit off topic, but wastrilith with at-will blasphemy (CL15, CR15 monster, Savage Tide) forced me to realize that I no longer wish to use 3.5 for my games .

Somewhat ironically, one might allow blasphemy to be negated with silence, but not all groups are battle focused enough to realize such tactics.