Third Party: If So, Then What?

[Mark]

Hey Mark,

I wish I knew the answers to your questions.

I think one potential answer is for EN World to create a 4E specific forum, like the PF forum, and get the General forum back to being an actual General forum. 4E and PF threads would be moved over to them as they arise, until people get used to the idea that it is inappropriate to post either in the General forum. Of course, in conjunction with that, you make all specific forums (4E, PF, Rules, etc.) Community Supporter access only. There's two sides to every equation and if revenues aren't going up, then costs need to come down. That would at least be a solution short of closing the whole site.

 

[thecasualoblivion]

Ok. Circular argument.

I don't get your reasoning here.

Historically, ENWorld has been the best place to discuss and find news of 3PP/OGL D&D products. Its kind of what set ENWorld apart. I asserted that the 3PP/GSL/OGL scene has diminished in recent years, and that the discussion that followed it also diminished. Since 3PP/OGL was a large part of the discussion and focus here, it would stand to reason that ENWorld would be similarly diminished. Since ENWorld was more strongly focused on 3PP/OGL than other sites that had existed in the past(RPGnet's main focus would be non-d20 games, while WotC is strongly focused on WotC alone), it would stand to reason that ENWorld would be more diminished than those other places.

As for 4E, while there is some good discussion in ENWorld's 4E section, it isn't as interesting as what goes on at RPGnet(IMO), and it doesn't compete with the sheer volume of posting at WotC. In addition, ENWorld's reporting of RPG news is in competition with WotC's own D&D site, and frankly WotC has been blowing ENWorld away in terms of 4E news. Even scoops from DDI articles get echoed in the WotC forums in fairly short order. Its definitely where I go. ENWorld just doesn't dominate in terms of being "the place to be" for 4E, not like it did for the OGL.

 

[thecasualoblivion]

I think one potential answer is for EN World to create a 4E specific forum, like the PF forum, and get the General forum back to being an actual General forum. 4E and PF threads would be moved over to them as they arise, until people get used to the idea that it is inappropriate to post either in the General forum. Of course, in conjunction with that, you make all specific forums (4E, PF, Rules, etc.) Community Supporter access only. There's two sides to every equation and if revenues aren't going up, then costs need to come down. That would at least be a solution short of closing the whole site.

Charging for specific forum access would be the death of this place.

 

[BryonD]

Historically....

I think I have a different point of view on it.
I remember when Eric announced that he was going to be adding message boards to his 3E news page.
This place has always been a D&D board to me.
The fact that the OGL made D&D open to virtually anything was an extension of that.

The main boards were D&D talk right up until 4E was announced. Yeah, there were lots of other places as well. But this was D&D 3E central.


But, the lack of support for 3PP and the lack of support for this kind of site are related, so blaming one for the other is missing the larger picture.

 

[BryonD]

Charging for specific forum access would be the death of this place.

What will not getting enough support be?

 

[Mark]

Charging for specific forum access would be the death of this place.

That would appear to be happening anyway, but I would only suggest that it would make the place considerably more exclusive. Perhaps there could be some sliding scales where access to heavy traffic forums like 4E would be at the high end, say $5/per month while access to lower traffic forums could be $1/month. This way the patrons incurring the higher site costs would be the ones providing the greater part of the necessary revenue. Of course people who simply have no interest in supporting the site might leave but that would help reduce the costs, too.

 

[BryonD]

I think one potential answer is for EN World to create a 4E specific forum, like the PF forum, and get the General forum back to being an actual General forum. 4E and PF threads would be moved over to them as they arise, until people get used to the idea that it is inappropriate to post either in the General forum. Of course, in conjunction with that, you make all specific forums (4E, PF, Rules, etc.) Community Supporter access only. There's two sides to every equation and if revenues aren't going up, then costs need to come down. That would at least be a solution short of closing the whole site.

You may have a very good point regarding the General forum.
However, it may be too late for that. And it may have never been viable in the first place. It may just be that what is left of the 3E base combined with the existing 4E base just isn't enough support to go around and no amount of arrangements can change that. It may be like having 64 pennies and trying to stack them so that they add up to a dollar.

We may need a 64 cent board.

 

[thecasualoblivion]

I think I have a different point of view on it.
I remember when Eric announced that he was going to be adding message boards to his 3E news page.
This place has always been a D&D board to me.
The fact that the OGL made D&D open to virtually anything was an extension of that.

The main boards were D&D talk right up until 4E was announced. Yeah, there were lots of other places as well. But this was D&D 3E central.


But, the lack of support for 3PP and the lack of support for this kind of site are related, so blaming one for the other is missing the larger picture.

What is the larger picture?

So, are you saying that ENWorld's attempt at embracing or at the least making room at the table for 4E either hurt itself or the 3PP discussion community as a whole? I'm trying to understand this. I see a few things here:

1. I don't find the reasoning that the OGL was an integral part of D&D, or that discussion of OGL/3PP was discussion of D&D universal. I never really held that opinion, and during my 3.5E days I basically refused to bother with anything not released by WotC, and I didn't really consider OGL books D&D. I spent most of my time online at WotC's forums during 3.5E's tenure, and that was the prevailing opinion there, and it was a large community. I only began checking ENWorld when this place had better news about 4E prior to its release.

2. The OGL made D&D open to almost everything, but 4E changed all of that. A big part of the D&D community is 4E, and 4E is most certainly not open.

3. I don't know that this place was objectively D&D central. WotC's forums certainly beat ENWorld out in terms of volume.

4. What was the talk on ENWorld after 4E was announced? Was it not D&D talk anymore?

But, the lack of support for 3PP and the lack of support for this kind of site are related, so blaming one for the other is missing the larger picture.

I'm not really sure exactly what you mean here. Are you saying that ENWorld's decisions had something to do with the root cause of the lack of support for 3PP and in turn the lack of support for itself? I had said that I believed the decline in 3PP/OGL has influenced the decline of ENWorld. If not this, then what?

 

[Mark]

We may need a 64 cent board.

I'm guessing two 32 cent boards would be better and more condusive to growing at least one of them into a $1 board. It appears we know which one is more likely to support that growth.

 

[thecasualoblivion]

What will not getting enough support be?

No forum is good enough to pay for the privilege. Why pay for ENWorld when you can go to WotC or RPGnet for free? I have no issue with asking for donations, or supporting a place that you believe in. Making the place require payment to use is another story.