The new Battlerager - Clear as mud

[DNH]

I have a couple of thoughts on this.

1 - I wasn't aware that the thp gain from the Battlerager Vigour feature stacks with those gained from the Invigorating keyword. I had assumed that they were both saying the same thing, so I have only been applying it the once. I am still not convinced this is correct (the doubling up, I mean) but I am prepared to accept it due to the "plus any thp normally granted by the power" codicil which sort of covers it. Feel free to try and convince me.

2 - I am siding with Bayuer on the Dwarf Stoneblood issue. The wording is clear: use, not hit. So I am applying the feat bonus to Invigorating misses also.

So for my own Fighter (Level 4, Dwarf, Con mod +4, Battlerager Vigour, Dwarf Stoneblood, trained in Endurance), I have the following:

Hit with Invigorating = +10 temp hp
Hit with Regular = +4 temp hp
Miss with Invigorating = +6 temp hp
Miss with Regular = +0 temp hp

Any thoughts?

 

[Blackbrrd]

Hit with Invigorating = +10 temp hp
Hit with Regular = +4 temp hp
Miss with Invigorating = +6 temp hp
Miss with Regular = +0 temp hp

This is my interpretation as well

 

[WalterKovacs]

I have a couple of thoughts on this.

1 - I wasn't aware that the thp gain from the Battlerager Vigour feature stacks with those gained from the Invigorating keyword. I had assumed that they were both saying the same thing, so I have only been applying it the once. I am still not convinced this is correct (the doubling up, I mean) but I am prepared to accept it due to the "plus any thp normally granted by the power" codicil which sort of covers it. Feel free to try and convince me.

2 - I am siding with Bayuer on the Dwarf Stoneblood issue. The wording is clear: use, not hit. So I am applying the feat bonus to Invigorating misses also.

So for my own Fighter (Level 4, Dwarf, Con mod +4, Battlerager Vigour, Dwarf Stoneblood, trained in Endurance), I have the following:

Hit with Invigorating = +10 temp hp
Hit with Regular = +4 temp hp
Miss with Invigorating = +6 temp hp
Miss with Regular = +0 temp hp

Any thoughts?

The character is at level 11, so the feat bonus is +4 instead of +2 (making your 10 become a 12, and your 6 become an 8).

As for missing with an invigorating power, this is my interpretation:

An invigorating power gives you thp on a hit.

The battlerager class feature provides temporary hit points that trigger off missing with an invigorating power.

The feat gives bonus to the number of thp "you gain from using an invigorating power". The wording implies that the thp come from the power itself, not just from a class feature triggered by using the power. Were it to work in either situation, it would perhaps have been worded as "when" using an invigorating power.

 

[DNH]

The character is at level 11, so the feat bonus is +4 instead of +2 (making your 10 become a 12, and your 6 become an 8).

Agreed, but I was referring to my own Level 4 character, like I said.

As for missing with an invigorating power, this is my interpretation:

An invigorating power gives you thp on a hit.

The battlerager class feature provides temporary hit points that trigger off missing with an invigorating power.

The feat gives bonus to the number of thp "you gain from using an invigorating power". The wording implies that the thp come from the power itself, not just from a class feature triggered by using the power. Were it to work in either situation, it would perhaps have been worded as "when" using an invigorating power.

I really don't understand what you're getting at here. You take the power's attack line (eg Crushing Surge = Str vs AC) to make the attack. That means you are using the power. Hit or miss, you use the power. Were it an Encounter or a Daily power, you would cross it off your list. Given that, Dwarf Stoneblood ("bonus to the number of temporary hit points you gain from using an invigorating power") gives you the extra thp even on a miss.

 

[WalterKovacs]

I really don't understand what you're getting at here. You take the power's attack line (eg Crushing Surge = Str vs AC) to make the attack. That means you are using the power. Hit or miss, you use the power. Were it an Encounter or a Daily power, you would cross it off your list. Given that, Dwarf Stoneblood ("bonus to the number of temporary hit points you gain from using an invigorating power") gives you the extra thp even on a miss.

You are using an invigorating power.

However the question is "why are you gaining temporary hit points"?

If you hit with the power, you gain temporary hit points because of the invigorating keyword (the battlerager vigor class features adds to that number, as does the feat).

However, if you miss you do not gain any thp because of the invigorating keyword, instead you gain it because of the battlerager vigor class feature.

The difference is that, in the first case, the invigorating power is the direct source of the thp. In the second case, the class feature is the source, the invigorating keyword is only the trigger.

It is true that the feat does not specify on a hit. However, it is possible for an invigorating power to give out thp on a miss (any martial encounter attack power can become invigorating through a feat). I'm not sure if there is such a power yet, but there is a potential for one, and for that reason, leaving things open ended for the wording of the feat allows those powers to benefit from the bonus.

It does specify that it is for the thp that come from using the power with the invigorating keyword, and the battlerager class feature doesn't alter powers with the invigorating keyword to give out thp on a miss, but instead the thp come from the class feature.

 

[eamon]

I really don't understand what you're getting at here. You take the power's attack line (eg Crushing Surge = Str vs AC) to make the attack. That means you are using the power. Hit or miss, you use the power. Were it an Encounter or a Daily power, you would cross it off your list. Given that, Dwarf Stoneblood ("bonus to the number of temporary hit points you gain from using an invigorating power") gives you the extra thp even on a miss.

This is my interpretation as well. Additionally, it's not a particularly problematic interpretation, balance-wise: you're still better off actually hitting, and this consolation prize isn't going to dramatically affect that.

 

[keterys]

There is a notable difference between getting 8 temp on a miss and getting 4 temp on a miss... might be worth poking WotC on this one for clarification.

 

[JiffyPopTart]

I can see how this could be interpreted both ways....

A. Cut and pasting from the July 2009 update for Dwarven Stoneblood...
"You gain a +2 feat bonus to the number of
temporary hit points you gain from using an invigorating
power. The bonus increases to 4 at 11th level
and 6 at 21st level."

B. Cut and pasting from the July 2009 update for Battlerager Vigor
"If you use an invigorating fighter attack power
and miss every target with it, you gain temporary hit
points equal to your Constitution modifier."

Following the list of steps in order...

1. Player uses an invigorating power.
2. Player misses his target
3. Battlerager Vigor kicks in and grants the player 4thp BECAUSE HE USED AN INVIGORATING POWER.
4. Dwarven Stoneblood adds +4thp because the player GAINED THP BECAUSE HE USED AN INVIGORATING POWER.

The fundamental difference in the two views is the thought that Dwarven Stoneblood only augments what the Invigorating keyword does versus the thought that any method at all of gaining thp from an invigorating power would qualify you for the extra 4thp (Battlerager Vigor feature, a theoretical weapon that gives you 1thp everytime you miss, or even a character power that does the same thing).

It really is, as my initial title claims, clear as mud.

DS

 

[JiffyPopTart]

Interestingly enough, I played with this new method last night and I found that against one or two opponents at a time, the revised way of getting THP actually ended up with me having more shielding than the old way. Using invigorating powers has become MUCH more attractive than before.

Totally unrelated to this topic...we were down to the last bad guy in the battle (who was a half-orc greataxe BBEG) and he was taking his last swipe before he went down. The GM exclaimed in glee as he rolled a crit (I think it was a crit as he announced 50something damage). I popped out my last-ditch-evasion power that I have never used previously, as I save it for just these occasions.

It was like deflating a balloon. I felt guilty I took away the GMs fun!

DS

 

[Blackbrrd]

Just relax your DM will do that to you another time. I know I did with a immediate interrupt teleport on hit (recharge 5) power.