LEB Discussion Thread '09

[TwoHeadsBarking]

Well, the Bloodclaw property outright states that it only works with melee attacks. So I think that means that it would work with melee implement attacks, which the assassin has a couple of. But it was never going to work with the ranged ones.

 

[stonegod]

Weapon properties (brutal, etc.) apply to the weapon, not the weaplement. The FAQ says only the "magic properties" apply. This is made clear with the assassin:

While wielding the weapon as an implement, the characteristics of the weapon you use—proficiency bonus, damage die, and weapon properties (such as defensive or high crit)—are irrelevant to your implement powers.

As for CaBaNa's point on answer 14 ("If you use a magic item's power ... that item's keywords are added to the regular keywords of the power you are using"): That's beside the point. Answer 14 applies if you can use the power; it doesn't make all powers usable.

 

[elecgraystone]

As for CaBaNa's point on answer 14 ("If you use a magic item's power ... that item's keywords are added to the regular keywords of the power you are using"): That's beside the point. Answer 14 applies if you can use the power; it doesn't make all powers usable.

It's my understanding that a flaming weapon's at will power does add fire to your attacks. The at will changes 'All damage dealt by this weapon' into fire damage. That doesn't say dealt in melee or dealt with weapon attacks. It means the power 'can be used only if you’re wielding a weapon' much like you find 'Use this power when you hit with an attack using this holy symbol.' It not telling you what kind of attack you have to use it with, it's telling you it has to be a valid item to use in the attack.

Now look at Arcane Implement Proficiency. 'If that implement is also a weapon, you do not add the weapon's proficiency bonus to attack rolls made while you wield it as an implement.' The at will power doesn't say 'all damage dealt when wielded as a weapon'. Just wielded and you do that for both implements and weapons. At least that's how I see it.

 

[Kalidrev]

Wow... for once, I think I actually agree with the entirety of an Elecgraystone post! =P Nicely worded EGS!

 

[stonegod]

It's my understanding that a flaming weapon's at will power does add fire to your attacks. The at will changes 'All damage dealt by this weapon' into fire damage. That doesn't say dealt in melee or dealt with weapon attacks. It means the power 'can be used only if you’re wielding a weapon' much like you find 'Use this power when you hit with an attack using this holy symbol.' It not telling you what kind of attack you have to use it with, it's telling you it has to be a valid item to use in the attack.

The fact remains that powers are not inherited by weapon-implements used as implements.

Now look at Arcane Implement Proficiency.'If that implement is also a weapon, you do not add the weapon's proficiency bonus to attack rolls made while you wield it as an implement.' The at will power doesn't say 'all damage dealt when wielded as a weapon'. Just wielded and you do that for both implements and weapons. At least that's how I see it.

My above point still stands.

 

[hornedturtle]

Would it be game breaking to allow something like that as a feat? Like a feat that if you that the weapon implement feat allows the weapon properties to apply. Or one that allows you to do it with just a specific type of weapon for abilities from any class.

 

[stonegod]

Would it be game breaking to allow something like that as a feat? Like a feat that if you that the weapon implement feat allows the weapon properties to apply. Or one that allows you to do it with just a specific type of weapon for abilities from any class.

The ability to change every attack to your favorite energy type for an arcane caster is pretty big; you generally don't see things like that until Epic (Prince of Hell ED as an example).

 

[elecgraystone]

Answer 14 applies if you can use the power; it doesn't make all powers usable.

The fact remains that powers are not inherited by weapon-implements used as implements.

What stops the flamings weapon from working? I don't recall anything that would invalidate powers from weapons being used when they are being used as an implement. Could you please provide a quote if this is the case.

EDIT: Check out the wyrmtooth dagger, tooth of chaos and all other sorcerer daggers with dailies. If weapons used as implements can't use their power then the power it has never works.

 

[elecgraystone]

The ability to change every attack to your favorite energy type for an arcane caster is pretty big; you generally don't see things like that until Epic (Prince of Hell ED as an example).

Why? Weapon Focus works so I can get my bonus damage what way. What's the difference if My bonus is from fire or it's from using a dagger?

 

[stonegod]

What stops the flamings weapon from working? I don't recall anything that would invalidate powers from weapons being used when they are being used as an implement. Could you please provide a quote if this is the case.

I'll restate what I said earlier.

By my reading of the FAQ, no:

16. When you are using a magic weapon as an implement, like a Holy Avenger or a Pact Dagger, what benefits do you get from the weapon?

You gain any bonuses listed under Enhancement, Critical and Property.

Powers are not Enhancements, Criticals, or Properties; they are Powers. Note that several daggers in the PH2 and AV2 (such as the Wyrmtooth Dagger) supercede this by exception (they specifically call out using it as an implement).

This also addresses your question on the wyrmtooth dagger and its fellows (as I mentioned, they are the exception in the design as they are called out specifically in the power).

Weapon Focus works so I can get my bonus damage what way. What's the difference if My bonus is from fire or it's from using a dagger?

Why is having fire or an other element all the time better, for example? A static +1 bonus (from Weapon Focus) vs.
- Turning all your arcane attacks to ignoring fire/acid/cold/lightning resistance (5/10/15) for sorcerers
- Having all your powers benefit from your fire/acid/etc. feat chains instead of directing your choice of powers. There really isn't a similar path for non-arcane folks to get similar benefits.
- Use your House Lyrandar mark ability on every power (as above).
There are likely other reasons, but it appears the designers believe changing all your abilities to your favored element type is valued by the designers as a costly ability (as all the known examples of letting it happen are ED properties).

My reading seems to be consistent with what has been published. There is still some debate of the power issue on the WotC boards as well, I'll add, so it isn't as clear as it should be.