Thanks for all the great feedback...Here is our current discussion via email
DISCUSSION 1 = discussion about using first aid and no second wind left and dying upon successful heal check:
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1. Player is correct when he says "stablize the dying" is DC15 and the hp does not change.
2. Rogue was correct when he referred to Players handbook #1 saying on page 295, 2nd column, under the section titled "healing a dying character" it says: "When you subject to a healing effect that requires you to spend a healing surge and you have none left, you are restored to 1 hit point, if you were dying."
3. BUT...In Players Handbook #1 on page 295, 2nd column, under the section "healing the dying" (in other words the same section Rogue was referring to) in the second sentence it says "If someone has stablized you using the heal skill but you receive no healing, you regain hit points after an extended rest."
So you were both wrong? So this last part has me thinking that michael and matt need a full extended rest to get hp back. so ya'll dragged them to ioun temple and to unicorn inn after kenku fight? Or?
Ummm.... further discussion anyone?
In this case, the way I read the rules (including part 3) I was wrong. Player was right about this situation. Both players should be at the negative value HP when they stopped taking saves. They would both remain unconscious “no matter what” unless someone used a true healing power, a healing potion, or they waited 6 hours (4 for eladrin). In order to maintain game timeline, this could have been done by Bard after a 5 minute rest and then another 5 minute rest to regain all of his healing powers back.
Discussion 2 = Rogue/DM about his pit situation:
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Rogue did fall in the pit.. As I said, his using acrobatics to not fall in, just doesn't feel right, so I checked and was happy to find out that, if you don't perceive it passive or otherwise, and you affect the trigger you have tripped it. When you trip it - it rolls to hit you, you shouldn't get another layer of defense if you think about it. It rolled against his reflex if yuo remember and hit him easily, so he fell in. Here are the things I turned up:
1. Traps do not give you a "save" to avoid falling in. Read traps, acrobtics, atheltics, "falling" rules, or whatever else you can think of. Nowhere do you get the right to "avoid falling in" unless OTHER conditions occur. Like push, pull, slide powers and such.
2. Players Handbook #1, page 284, under the section titled "Falling", second column, last part called "catching yourself" does not include falling in pits.
3. Rogue, the pit was only 20 ft deep, not 30 but it does do 3d6+5 poison ongoing. So you would be prone, poisoned for 5 on-going (save ends) and took 5 hp of damage (remember I rolled a 3 a 1 and a 1). See next item first. THis ain't over yet.
4. As for rolling to take half damage, read under falling like above. It says: under the "jumping down" section that "if you are trained you can make a check to reduce the amount of damage you take from the fall. See page 181". Page 181 says that you can fall or jump down, so this counts. Therefore if Rogue is trained in acrobatics he only takes 2 not 5, but still takes 5 on-ongoing. So Rouge you trained?
Umm... further discussion anyone?
Rogue is trained in acrobatics… damage is reduced by ½ of the acrobatics check NOT ½ the damage. My acrobatics is +9, so on a roll of 1+ I take no damage 1+9=10 –> 10 / 2 = 5 damage reduction (except the 5 ongoing(save ends) I also remain standing as you do not fall prone if you take no damage from the fall.
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PHB pg 181
Reduce Falling Damage: Free action if you fall or a move action if you jump down.
✦ Damage Reduced: Make an Acrobatics check, and reduce the amount of falling damage you take by one-half your check result (round down).
PHB pg 284 – under Falling
Prone: You fall prone when you land, unless you take no damage from the fall.
If Rogue climbs out of the trap, he has defeated it. Listed under countermeasures is climbing out of the pit. Therefore it is the same as disabling it as far as XP goes.
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DMG Pg 87 – Countermeasures for a False-Floor Pit.
Countermeasures
✦ An adjacent character can trigger the trap with a DC 10 Thievery check (standard action). The floor falls into the pit.
✦ An adjacent character can disable the trap with a DC 25 Thievery check (standard action). The floor becomes safe.
✦ A character who makes an Athletics check (DC 11, or DC 21 without a running start) can jump over the pit.
✦ A character can climb out with a DC 15 Athletics check.
On the page before the traps, it says the following:
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Winging It
There is always more than one way to approach a trap or hazard. Even the best designed traps feature potential design holes that a player might exploit to counter a trap. Sometimes the best or the most fun ideas for countering a trap or hazard come as a flash of inspiration during play. Remember the first rule of improvisation: Try not to say no. When a player suggests a plausible countermeasure for a trap, even if that possibility isn’t included in the trap’s presentation, figure out the best way to resolve that using the rules: a skill check or ability check against an appropriate DC, an attack, or the use of a power. You can always use the DCs that are included in the trap’s description as example DCs for using other skills and abilities. In short, always find ways to reward quick thinking and fun when it comes to traps and hazards. Outsmarting traps, hazards, and villains (and even the DM) is fun for players, and first and foremost, your game should be fun.
This doesn’t mean I don’t fall in, but it does mean if the DM feels that an appropriate DC level skill check against acrobatics keeps me from falling in, it is not against the rules. Now on to the more interesting rule. There is nothing that says anything about ½ XP or no XP. Only that this is an encounter “roll initiative” and IF I crawl out of the pit, I get whatever XP the Trap has to offer.
DMG pg 85 – top of right column
When triggered, traps and hazards either attack or activate and roll initiative, acting every round in initiative order.
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DMG pg 85 – bottom of right column
Traps and hazards fit into an encounter much like an additional monster. Every trap or hazard has a level (and an appropriate XP value for that level), so you can figure it in as part of an encounter that includes monsters to determine the appropriate reward for defeating it. For example, an encounter for five 10th level PCs might include four 10th-level monsters and one 10th-level trap. Defeating the trap, just like defeating the monster, earns the party 500 XP.
DISCUSSION 3 = Rogue being attacked while stealthed:
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PHB Pg 222 – Stealth rules – there are several key points here.
1) A successful stealth check gives the following:
a. Success: You are hidden, which means you are silent and invisible to the enemy (see “Concealment” and “Targeting What You Can’t See,” page 281).
i. INVISIBLE
✦ You can’t be seen by normal forms of vision.
✦ You have combat advantage against any enemy that can’t see you.
✦ You don’t provoke opportunity attacks from enemies that can’t see you.
ii. PHB pg 291 – Immediate Reaction: A readied action is an immediate reaction. It takes place after your enemy completes the action that triggers it.
b. Remaining Hidden: You remain hidden as long as you meet these requirements.
Keep Out of Sight: If you no longer have any cover or concealment against an enemy, you don’t remain hidden from that enemy. You don’t need superior cover, total concealment, or to stay outside line of sight, but you do need some degree of cover or concealment to remain hidden. You can’t use another creature as cover to remain hidden.
Keep Quiet: If you speak louder than a whisper or otherwise draw attention to yourself, you don’t remain hidden from any enemy that can hear you.
Keep Still: If you move more than 2 squares during an action, you must make a new Stealth check with a –5 penalty. If you run, the penalty is –10. If any enemy’s passive Perception check beats your check result, you don’t remain hidden from that enemy.
Don’t Attack: If you attack, you don’t remain hidden.
c. Not Remaining Hidden: If you take an action that causes you not to remain hidden, you retain the benefits of being hidden until you resolve the action. You can’t become hidden again as part of that same action.
d. CONCELMENT If you can’t get a good look at your target, it has concealment from you, which means your attack rolls take a penalty against that target. You might be fighting in an area of dim light (see “Vision and Light,” page 262), in an area filled with smoke or mist, or among terrain features that get in the way of your vision, such as foliage.
Therefore, the bird thingys either did not see me and did not trigger the attack, OR they somehow saw me and should have still not been able to attack because they would have to take an active perception check to target what you can’t see (pg 281 PHB) either way I would retain the invisibility throughout my turn (their readied action happened within my turn). MAYBE if I had thrown the tarp off the top of them, but attacking from under the tarp would provide me a minimal amount of concelment (lightly obscure includes things like fog, foliage, terrain features, etc), allowing me to retain stealth.
