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Starting "Old SChool" gaming

Are you suggesting that poking a trap door with a 10' pole in a D&D3 game would not spring the trap door open like it would in a OD&D game? You're suggesting that *only* rolling a Search check would find the trap door?

Or that the D&D3 rules say a Player must argue with his DM about a ruling (not covered in the book), but the OD&D rules say a Player will not argue about a ruling (not covered in the book)?

Bullgrit

Nope. Poking a trap door with a 10' pole in 3E would BE your search check. The specifics of how something is accomplished is window dressing for the mechanic. If you are prodding with a pole and fail the check then you don't find anything per the RAW.

As far as arguing goes, every D&D edition specifies the DM as having the final say on rulings (to possibly be discussed after the game). I don't remember any advice from a rulebook suggesting bickering over a ruling as a suggested solution to anything.
 
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Grimstaff

Explorer
I assure you, I'm completely serious.

I wholeheartedly believe that the more restrictive aspects of early-edition character creation are loads more inspiring than the morass of options that characterize the d20 System. Especially Basic Set D&D, with its simplicity-itself array of four human classes, three demihuman classes, and three alignments. It cuts through the drek and leaves everything to the imagination.

This makes more sense, your earlier verbage ("restriction" as opposed to "simplicity") threw me a bit! ;)
 

invokethehojo

First Post
I am so glad I found this thread.

My group fell out of gaming near the end of 3.5, and when 4e came out it brought us all back together (combined with the opening of a game store in my small town). But since then we have all come to wonder why we still play, and what we are in it for. We have been discussing this, and trying other games, but this primer describes exactly what we were trying to say. I don't necessariliy want to go back to 0e type rules, i like detailed character creation, but this kind of play is what i am missing. Having read this I think we can take a system we like, strip away all the 'problems' we have with it, and get back to the kind of game we want.

I wanted to put my 2 cents in. There is nothing in the newer editions saying you can't play that way, but it tends leads you away from that path. Just with how it's written and presented it makes the rules seem absolute, and because of that people come to the table expecting to do everything by the rules. It creates that kind of culture. This may be purely psychological, but it's a very significant factor in what gamers expect/want when playing.
 

I am so glad I found this thread.

My group fell out of gaming near the end of 3.5, and when 4e came out it brought us all back together (combined with the opening of a game store in my small town). But since then we have all come to wonder why we still play, and what we are in it for. We have been discussing this, and trying other games, but this primer describes exactly what we were trying to say. I don't necessariliy want to go back to 0e type rules, i like detailed character creation, but this kind of play is what i am missing. Having read this I think we can take a system we like, strip away all the 'problems' we have with it, and get back to the kind of game we want.

I wanted to put my 2 cents in. There is nothing in the newer editions saying you can't play that way, but it tends leads you away from that path. Just with how it's written and presented it makes the rules seem absolute, and because of that people come to the table expecting to do everything by the rules. It creates that kind of culture. This may be purely psychological, but it's a very significant factor in what gamers expect/want when playing.

I agree. I recently started a 4E campaign with rules tweaked for the kind of game I enjoy. We will play our 4th session tonight. I am running a converted 2E adventure: Return to the Keep on the Borderlands, and we are having a great time so far. Treat the rules as guidelines and play the game you want to play and any edition can work. ;)
 

Tav_Behemoth

First Post
A more detailed, all-encompassing mechanic like d20 also has benefits... fewer mechanics require a judgment call. I also found that there was a lot less rules-lawyering in 3e (at least, in the early days) because the rules were straightforward and applied everywhere.

I agree that one of the things I enjoy about 4E (or 3.X with a group that has a high level of rules-expertise and has been playing together long or well enough to work out consensus) is that it's clear to everyone what will happen in a given situation. When I DM, I can rely on the players to remind me how the rules apply to this situation; when I play, I can point out rules that the DM might have missed. Individual exceptions exist - some people just want to argue, or seek personal advantage - but it's almost always the case in my experience that a new-school game can achieve a friendly feeling of communality, where the rules are maintained equally by everyone & apply fairly to all.

It's worth pointing out that this new-school advantage works directly against the idea of rulings instead of rules. Because the outcome of the rulings aren't agreed upon by everyone ahead of time, it opens the possibility of unfairness. There's a strong incentive to stick with the rules as written because that keeps you in the safe harbor of the communal understanding of how things work.

Let's say that an efreet is holding a captive on a bridge and planning to run across it to immolate the captive in a lava pool. One of the players uses the command spell to say "Drop!" In 4E, the effects of the spell are sharply limited to avoid judgement calls; the efreet is either dazed or pushed, as the player desires. In 3E, the effects are similarly pre-defined: "On its turn, the subject drops whatever it is holding. It can’t pick up any dropped item until its next turn." But in AD&D (or OD&D Supplement I), the rules don't define the effect (other than that the subject must obey), so a ruling is required. The efreet might drop the captive, or drop to the ground like it was about to do pushups, or step off the bridge so that both it and the captive drop into the chasm. If the outcome isn't what the player wants, they might feel they're being cheated by the DM, discriminated against if the rulings always seem to go against them but in favor of other players, etc.

Personally, I prefer the expansive possibilities of a spell that can make someone obey any one word you choose, and feel something is lost when it's restricted only to "daze or push". So I'm willing to pay the cost of giving up the pre-agreed rules framework in order to gain the flexibility that comes from rulings, but I think it helps to be aware that there is a tradeoff. When I DM OD&D I'm wary of creating the perception of unfairness so I try to make sure that we build a consensus around each ruling. I might ask the players whether anyone remembers a precedent that would apply here. Or I might say "Which outcomes do y'all think are most likely?" and then leave it up to the dice, so that it feels like an objective thing instead of fiat on my part. On a 1-5 it might not go the player's way, but the dice might always come up 6, and leaving that possibility open means that we don't have to argue endlessly about whether that interpretation is absolutely possible or impossible, just more or less likely. I'm also aware that players with a new-school outlook may feel disempowered by not knowing ahead of time what the outcome of their action may be, so I'm open to someone deciding not to take an action if it looks like it won't turn out the way they intended.

I enjoy the process of coming up with rulings - it gives me a feeling of ownership of the game, and gives it versimilitude because very unique situational factors that you'd never have rules for are easily reflected in rulings. By sharing the process of arriving at the rulings with the players, I avoid hogging all that fun and also feel less insecure about my rulings; some of the burden of making wise decisions is put onto the shoulders of the players and the dice.
 
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What???

The big deal with WotC's games is restrictions: strictly finite options requiring zero-sum trade-offs. You can do this but not that, and if you want to do that other thing then you need this and this and this (at the expense of those other things). If not for wanting that sub-game in such complexity, folks could get their lists of "customized details and abilities" in RuneQuest -- or any one of many other games of the 1970s - '80s.

The designers of 3e apparently tried to point out that it is not necessary to use all the procedures all the time. There have always been D&Ders, though, who insisted on having a rule for everything, and everything "by the rules". They flourished in the new environment, and -- with the "gamers" getting the upper hand again over the "simulators" -- they seem strongly to have influenced the design of 4e.

Without considering late 2e (with which I have but cursory experience), that state of affairs has prevailed for almost a decade. I think that has contributed to what seems to me a greater frequency of players who have difficulty simply role playing, as opposed to "roll" playing.

The game culture in general has changed significantly in a feedback loop with successive rule-book releases. Not only do players introduced to "D&D" more recently reflect that in their basic conceptions, but even people who started in the hobby's early years (I think of one local fellow) may have adopted the same habits of mind.
This is a particularly galling strawman to see continually come up.
 


Aus_Snow

First Post
It's good you picked up the primer. Next, I would recommend you pick up Swords & Wizardry (for free!) and also check out Philotomy Jurament's Musings. . . except that last part might be a bit tricky, now that the website no longer seems to be active. :(

Why S&W? Well, it's the closest you'll get, for a sane price, to the original D&D, the very first RPG. And it's a damn fine game in its own right (OD&D, that is) - worth trying, at least once.

Good luck, and may your campaigns be both enjoyable and memorable. :)

Oh, and I'll just add this. . . It's awesome you're playing RPGs with your family. :cool: Apart from anything else great about it, more than perhaps any other thing, this will change society's overall view of the hobby, bit by bit, case by case.
 

mmadsen

First Post
One (interminable) problem with these discussions of "old school" gaming is that the Primer emphasizes one facet of "old school" gaming -- rulings, not rules -- but actual "old school" gaming wasn't nearly so consistent.

Advanced Dungeons & Dragons, after all, was a pretty clear move away from this philosophy -- although, starting from "original" D&D, it was still, in many ways, a rulings-based game. So we had players describing how their characters searched for traps and treasure, and the DM making judgment calls with little mechanical support -- and then we had explicit rules for demi-human level limits and other esoterica.
 

Which point? There are several statements made in that post. Which one (or ones) do you disagree with?
Yeah, I couldn't decide which one galled me more. Mostly the idea that having a lot of options = restrictions.

I thought of also referencing the closely related strawman from the document linked in the OP, the idea that "if you don't have a feat, you can't do it."

And I was also galled by the idea that these rules have created a culture of "rollplaying" but that's not so much a strawman as it's just an unsubstantiated assertion that I disagree with.
 

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