How would YOU nerf it?

[Kzach]

So, after reading through the various threads on the new nerfs, I hit upon an idea of how to 'rebalance' an item. The idea then struck me that everyone will have their say about it, so why not create a thread where we can collect everyone's nerfs?

So, the idea here is that if you think a feat or item or class feature is overpowered or too weak, how would YOU change it?

I'll start off proceedings with my take on the Iron Armbands of Power. I'd keep the bonus the same but make it conditional and add it to Power Attack damage. It's still beefy, could still be used every turn, but it comes with a price.

 

[Saeviomagy]

I'd simply remove the higher level versions of them. +1 damage is nice, but there are better alternatives, and that just gets more so the higher level you are.

 

[Elric]

Player’s Handbook:
Class Powers/Features:
Seal of Binding (Cleric Daily 25): You can sustain this power no more than three times.
(This combos with a Demigod’s Divine Regeneration to kill almost anything, and taking an opponent out of the fight for many rounds can be too good on its own)

Champion of Order (Paladin Paragon Path):
Certain Justice (Encounter 11): Change the second sentence to “If the target is marked by you, it is also weakened and dazed until the end of your next turn.” Change damage to 1[W] + Strength modifier.

Champion of Order—In Defense of Order (Feature, level 11): Change the first sentence to add: “When you are adjacent to the target of your divine challenge, the target provokes an opportunity attack from you if it shifts or makes an attack that does not include you as a target.”

(Certain Justice is too powerful as written, and completely changes the dynamics of fights against solos. Changing its effect to until the end of the next turn greatly weakens the power, so adding to damage seems fair. Changing In Defense of Order so that the target also provokes opportunity attacks on a shift makes this feature stronger and more thematic, and helps compensate for the change to Certain Justice.)

Orb of Imposition (Wizard class feature): Orb of imposition’s save penalty power is a free action you can use only once per encounter, but you can choose to apply it after the relevant saving throw roll has already been made. (Large ongoing save penalties are too powerful)

Arcane Power:
Feats: Draconic Spellcaster, Fey Charmer, Gnome Phantasmist: Only the damage bonus on these feats scales with level; the to-hit bonus does not. (to-hit bonuses on feats like this shouldn’t scale with level)

Player’s Handbook II:
Feats:
a) Disciple of Divine Wrath (Multi-class Avenger): Change the feat’s benefit to: …Once per encounter you can use oath of enmity. The effects last until the end of your next turn. You can use oath of enmity's effect up to two times
(Without this limitation, this feat is too good for multi-attackers)

Adventurer’s Vault:

a) Iron Armbands of Power, Bracers of Archery: change the bonus to damage to +1 per tier.

b) Cunning Weapons: only apply the saving throw penalty to the first save against the effect.

 

[eamon]

Champion of Order (Paladin Paragon Path):
Certain Justice (Encounter 11): Change the second sentence to “If the target is marked by you, it is also weakened and dazed until the end of your next turn.” Change damage to 1[W] + Strength modifier.

A less extreme nerf might be to give also give it a sustain minor:repeat the attack or something similar.

Orb of Imposition (Wizard class feature): Orb of imposition’s save penalty power is a free action you can use only once per encounter, but you can choose to apply it after the relevant saving throw roll has already been made. (Large ongoing save penalties are too powerful)

Neat idea! They've already fixed some of the save-penalty things in the last update, but it's surely not enough. One thing that worries me is that the orb is pretty poor unless pushed far; perhaps an errata that actually helps it in mediocre cases would also be in order - say, your above errata, but scaled in some way to permit multiple usages. Or, alternative: encouter power: free action when an enemy saves: target must reroll save and use worse result. This power can be used a number of times equal to your wisdom modifer in a single encouter. That limits the overall power (a save reroll is far from reliable), but isn't quite as useless at low levels (as the orb now sometimes is). The orb is broken both ways right now; it's over-the-top when broken with the right items and feats, but it's also almost useless early on.

Adventurer’s Vault:

a) Iron Armbands of Power, Bracers of Archery: change the bonus to damage to +1 per tier.

b) Cunning Weapons: only apply the saving throw penalty to the first save against the effect.

Sounds good! I'm not sure if cunning weapons will be at all attractive after that change, but at least they'll be less abusable. I'd add staff of ruin to the list of items with changed damage bonus.

 

[Elric]

A less extreme nerf might be to give also give it a sustain minor:repeat the attack or something similar.

Having a duration of (save ends) would be less of a nerf than the above and would be a smaller change than "repeat the attack" type effects. Still, my proposed change to In Defense of Order is an increase in power that happens at the same level, so nerfing Certain Justice seems reasonable.

Or, alternative: encouter power: free action when an enemy saves: target must reroll save and use worse result. This power can be used a number of times equal to your wisdom modifer in a single encouter. That limits the overall power (a save reroll is far from reliable), but isn't quite as useless at low levels (as the orb now sometimes is).

Wisdom modifier in forced rerolls per encounter usable after seeing the result would be really good! Almost certainly too good once the wizard can use a lot of save-ends effects. One of the problems with the Orb at low levels is that there are few save-ends effects to use it with, and the "extend a round" feature isn't particularly good.

Sounds good! I'm not sure if cunning weapons will be at all attractive after that change, but at least they'll be less abusable. I'd add staff of ruin to the list of items with changed damage bonus.

Another possibility for Cunning Weapons is to just remove the -3 and -4 save versions, but have the effect apply to all the saves made against an effect. If an opponent has a 55% base chance of success before applying the Cunning Weapon effect, -2 to all rolls comes out about the same in terms of average rounds effected as -4 to the first roll and no penalty after that.

I agree about Staff of Ruin.

 

[keterys]

The problem is that -2 stacks with another -2 which stacks with...

Take out save penalty stacking and lots of things are better.

 

[Elric]

The problem is that -2 stacks with another -2 which stacks with...

Take out save penalty stacking and lots of things are better.

The more save penalties you impose, the better a -2 on all saves is compared to -4 to just the first save. So -4 to just the first save isn't as prone to abuse in combination. This change to Cunning Weapons also fits well with the other changes made to AV (they've gone with the "first save" option).

Another AV save penalty item and proposed change: Skull Mask’s save penalty only works on your effects.

 

[eamon]

Wisdom modifier in forced rerolls per encounter usable after seeing the result would be really good! Almost certainly too good once the wizard can use a lot of save-ends effects. One of the problems with the Orb at low levels is that there are few save-ends effects to use it with, and the "extend a round" feature isn't particularly good.

Maybe "wisdom modifier" times is too often. Still, I wonder how good this is; after all the reroll still has a 50% success chance (after all - no more save penalty, right?), so this would, over the course of the combat, increase the number of rounds your effects work by about half your wisdom modifer; i.e. over the course of your career (assuming you start with Wis 18) that would be 2 to 4 extra rounds, less against elites and much less against solos. Combined with some extra feats and items, you might eke some more out of it, but it's limited - unlike the current approach. I suppose you'd want to further rule that you can't use the orb twice on the same save, for instance by imposing a 1/round limit. How about an immediate interrupt action cost?

In any case, imposing a penalty on a single save once per encounter - that's just not very good; it's downright terrible at heroic, compared to the staff or even wand. Really, that's why I prefer rerolls: these are at least meaningful early on, but they're inherently limited so they'll never get as out of hand nor ever get reliable which was the problem with the penalties. If you limit it to once a round, you eventually run into territory where you can do it almost the entire combat, but will be limited by the fact that you can't easily "nova" it, and that it's not reliable even when you do use it.

 

[Stalker0]

In any case, imposing a penalty on a single save once per encounter - that's just not very good; it's downright terrible at heroic, compared to the staff or even wand.

It is if you can apply the penalty after the roll.

If I were to houserule the orb, that is my preferred houserule.

Orb of Imposition: Once per encounter, after a save is rolled, you may apply a penalty to that save equal to your wisdom modifier.

That way the ability is always used when its useful.

 

[eamon]

It is if you can apply the penalty after the roll.

If I were to houserule the orb, that is my preferred houserule.

Orb of Imposition: Once per encounter, after a save is rolled, you may apply a penalty to that save equal to your wisdom modifier.

That way the ability is always used when its useful.

That's certainly true. I still think it would be a very mediocre ability in heroic tier. There aren't that many saves in heroic tier, so there's a good chance you'll not use it at all in an encounter; on any given save you'll likely have only around a 15% chance that it's relevant. What you get is a 1 round extension of a supporting effect. By contrast, the staff of defense grants a flat +1AC bonus and an interrupt which likely negates an entire attack - not just one round of the effect.

There's also a practical issue in that this ability would require all saves to be public; after all, the wizard must know when to use it. Right now, at least, they don't have to be.

I'm not sure what a better solution would be, but this 1/enc solution doesn't quite do it for me yet.