Fiddly Bits, Power Cards, and Imagination

[Hussar]

When I play 4e, my fellow gamers make good (often brilliant) use of their powers and make excellent tactical decisions. But it never even occurs to them to do anything else. When I wanted to temporarily blind a creature with my cloak -- the classic "throw a cloak over it's head to distract it for a few seconds" -- my fellow gamers looked at me as if I had sprouted a new head!

The funny thing is, unlike those here who have apparently had much better gamers to play with than I have, I have never, not once, ever seen a player say something like this. Nor, have I as a player tried it either. Same with swinging from a chandelier or whatever.

About the closest I would have seen is perhaps jumping through a window to catch people unawares.

Tactics? What were those? You rolled dice until the bad guys fell over. Go outside the rules? Why? Who am I to tell Gygax that he's wrong. Or any game designer for that matter.

I think people vastly overestimate the amount of "thinking outside the box" that happens at most tables. Or perhaps I just underestimate it. We're all colored by our own experiences after all.

But, is this a fiddly bits issue? Nope. It happens in every system IME.

 

[wolff96]

I On the immersion issue... have you ever had a brand new player bring some serious roleplay right out of the gate? I haven't seen it. Usually, they are are spending most of their cognitive resources on playing the game. Some sessions in, they start to ratchet it up..... often to the detriment of their gameplay, at first, until actual system mastery sets in later.

Actually, I have. But then again, I'm kind of blessed with good players right now. Also, I was using Warhammer FRPG (2e) at the time, which has a lot of "setting" built into the characters/classes from the instant the character is created. Whether that's a good thing or a bad thing is another topic. Regardless, the player in question took the implied characterization of his background and ran with it. She didn't even bother *trying* to learn the mechanics until a fight broke out.

But there's an exception to every rule and I agree with the point you were making in general -- I just have some REALLY good players right now.

I think people vastly overestimate the amount of "thinking outside the box" that happens at most tables. Or perhaps I just underestimate it. We're all colored by our own experiences after all.

Guess we'll have to agree to disagree here. I came into the game as a rather young fellow (late 1e, when I was about 10 or 11) and I'll be the first to admit that all of my early characters were built specifically to emulate my movie heroes. One memory that still sticks with me -- I tried to swing from a chandelier IN PLATE. Needless to say, I brought the thing crashing down (along with myself) on a bunch of guards -- rather than swinging dramatically over them -- but if it's ever been in a bad action movie, the chances are that I've tried it.

 

[Jhaelen]

The funny thing is, unlike those here who have apparently had much better gamers to play with than I have, I have never, not once, ever seen a player say something like this. Nor, have I as a player tried it either. Same with swinging from a chandelier or whatever.

In my experience those are the kind of actions typically attempted by players who are either
- new to roleplaying games as a whole
- new to the rpg system (i.e. unaware of the rpg's (exact) rules)
- new to rpg systems with a large ruleset (i.e. used to free-form rpg systems)

Thinking 'out of the box' is something that's unfortunately quickly lost by the majority of players. And I don't think it has anything to do with the presence or lack of fiddly bits and power cards.

 

[Raven Crowking]

I think people vastly overestimate the amount of "thinking outside the box" that happens at most tables. Or perhaps I just underestimate it. We're all colored by our own experiences after all.

But, is this a fiddly bits issue? Nope. It happens in every system IME.

I believe it is a direct response to two factors: 1) system, and 2) skill of the GM in presenting the world. if the system encourages thinking outside the box, and the GM both encourages and demonstrates thinking outside the box, then the players will also think outside the box.

I have gamed with many, many people over the years, and this is uniformly true IME.


RC

 

[Reigan]

I get some measure of satisfaction for defeating my opponents "by the rules". As soon as you start using strange stunts and manoeuvers, the outcome is determined by dm fiat (what he will let you get away with), rather than the known quantities of what a character and player can do for definite (powers etc.). In an rpg this is fine, in fact most rpgs can only work this way. I like it that some systems are tactically interesting and robust enough (like 4e) to support a more gamist play style. I still like narrative combat systems as well though, variety is good.

 

[Raven Crowking]

As soon as you start using strange stunts and manoeuvers, the outcome is determined by dm fiat (what he will let you get away with), rather than the known quantities of what a character and player can do for definite (powers etc.).

I don't agree with this. I think that it is perfectly feasable to create a set of stunt rules that allows both (1) stunts to occur, and (2) those stunts to occur within a rules framework.

As examples of the same, I exhibit Iron Heroes and RCFG.


RC

 

[Hussar]

I believe it is a direct response to two factors: 1) system, and 2) skill of the GM in presenting the world. if the system encourages thinking outside the box, and the GM both encourages and demonstrates thinking outside the box, then the players will also think outside the box.

I have gamed with many, many people over the years, and this is uniformly true IME.


RC

And thus it comes down to dueling anecdotes.

I have gamed just as long as you have, with most likely just as many gamers. Yet, my experience, whether as a player or a DM has been pretty much the same. People don't swing from chandeliers in any edition of D&D. "Thinking outside the box" is just something that, AFAIC happens on internet sites.

 

[Imaro]

And thus it comes down to dueling anecdotes.

I have gamed just as long as you have, with most likely just as many gamers. Yet, my experience, whether as a player or a DM has been pretty much the same. People don't swing from chandeliers in any edition of D&D. "Thinking outside the box" is just something that, AFAIC happens on internet sites.

I'm going to have to add my anecdotal evidence to RC's on this one, especially since I recently ran a Castles & Crusades game and am now running a 4e game. In C&C my players tried out of the box maneuvers way more than they do in 4e. In 4e they seem more concerned with maximizing the combination and interactions of their powers for success than trying something new or wild.

 

[Raven Crowking]

And thus it comes down to dueling anecdotes.

I have gamed just as long as you have, with most likely just as many gamers. Yet, my experience, whether as a player or a DM has been pretty much the same. People don't swing from chandeliers in any edition of D&D. "Thinking outside the box" is just something that, AFAIC happens on internet sites.

Your anecdote doesn't actually counter mine, as mine is provisional:

"If the system encourages thinking outside the box, and the GM both encourages and demonstrates thinking outside the box, then the players will also think outside the box."

If, either as a player or as a DM, you haven't encountered thinking outside the box, I am forced to conclude that you neither encouraged nor demonstrated thinking outside the box, either as a DM or as a player.

If I am wrong, it is because your statement that you haven't encountered this is wrong; you yourself would provide a counter-example.


RC

 

[Jeremy Ackerman-Yost]

And thus it comes down to dueling anecdotes.

I have gamed just as long as you have, with most likely just as many gamers. Yet, my experience, whether as a player or a DM has been pretty much the same. People don't swing from chandeliers in any edition of D&D. "Thinking outside the box" is just something that, AFAIC happens on internet sites.

Actually, it happens once or twice in a year of gaming, but because it's usually very cool when it does work, by the power of tall tales it becomes commonplace.

We had this gamer at my LFGS with the gift of gab. He was 7 foot tall if he was a foot. He had a shock of red hair... etc etc.