Hide armor expertise

[holywhitetrash]

Then maybe the answer is to introduce a similar feat for fighters (and any other class who suffers from such a scenario), rather than ban the hide expertise feat simply because other classes don't get it.

Though to be honest, I have yet to see a fighter who maxes out both str and con, or at least, pay as much attention to it as a barbarian.

so your answer to a dumb feat is another dumb feat
"sounds like an awesome plan"

 

[Runestar]

so your answer to a dumb feat is another dumb feat
"sounds like an awesome plan"

It would be if said feat was meant more as a feat tax to fix some perceived shortcoming of the barb, and less so of intentional power creep (along the lines of expertise).

If so, we can extrapolate that other classes facing the same issue might be deserving of a similar benefit.

Else, if we keep benchmarking everything to the same crappy parallel, then the game can never be improved, because by definition, "fixes" would always be deemed superior to existing options and summarily be rejected.

However, since fighters get to wear heavier armour, such a feat might not be needed. At least not for AC, but perhaps a feat which lets them use their str/con to benefit will or reflex in place of other stats?

 

[Drakhar]

Fighters do have a way to up their Reflex and Will, They just have to be using a shield.

 

[Starfox]

I see this as an attempt to keep barbarians from taking heavy armor, but perhaps not a very well thought out one. Barbarian Agility basically replaces the extra AC you can get from masterwork heavy armor; so does Hide Armor Expertize. Having both is going to jilt the system at high levels. Its a typical band-aid, not too well thought out. But I don't feel its a non-option feat; it is clearly intended as an alternative to chain/scale proficiency, which was pretty much mandatory before and broke the mold of the class.

 

[eamon]

If 80-100% of the CO builds are using something, it deserves a very very close look at.

How about chain proficiency for Con-shamans (that is before hide armor expertise)? Or weapon proficiency with some superior weapon? Or dwarven weapon training for melee fighting dwarves? Or toughness in early heroic tier? Weapon Focus? Dual Implement mastery for those it applies to? etc.

Being commonly used is perhaps a prerequisite to deserve a close look up, but a very weak indicator by itself. Because there are so many different builds, if you reduce your focus to a small enough branch of options, then the signature choices for those options immediate look overpowered. That doesn't actually mean they are; the appropriate comparison is not within that branch but between those branches.

Having said that, if an option is truly a non-choice, there is an argument to be made that a class feature or similar mechanic would be a better choice to implement it. Note that hide armor expertise is quite useful to non-barbarians too, so that argument doesn't really fly, here.

 

[eamon]

Shamans don't get hide proficiency so they'd need to spend 2 feats to get it... hide prof, then hide expertise. Given the stat requirements for hide are the same as chain, they're better off just getting chain instead.

Well, hide doesn't have a speed penalty, and permits different enchantments. Also, chainmail specialization has a 15 dex prereq, so that's kinda harsh; hide requires con. It's not a huge difference, but it's a viable choice, anyhow.

Likewise warlocks need to a. get hide proficiency, b. multiclass to primal, c. get hide expertise. They're better off in leather (if you really insist on going con/cha then I guess think about chain, or live with a low AC). Invokers start with chain anyway, so they don't even really need it.

Again, chainmail specialization is harder to get, and in any case if your con is really high you may simply have a higher AC in hide armor - it is after all the top tier light armor rather than the bottom tier heavy armor. And that's before specialization, which adds another +1.

Finally, hide armor gets the "Second Skin" feat, eventually, which is pretty nice.

All of which isn't trying to argue that hide armor expertise in conjunction with barbarian agility is potentially problematic. I don't think it should stack; but I also don't think the feat needs to go because of this one interaction. It would be enough to add the line "you are considered to be wearing heavy armor when wearing hide armor" to the feat to avoid stacking with agility, for instance.

 

[Dr_Ruminahui]

Well, said language doesn't really work, as it would also slow the character down (as that's one of the effects of heavy armour).

Better to just say it replaces the AC bonus from the Barbarian Agility class feature.

 

[Prestidigitalis]

Please excuse the slight tangent, but how would people feel about attempts to improve defenses for Shamans, etc., by means other than armor proficiencies, ability-shifting (Con instead of Dex), or flat bonuses?

Examples:

Shaman gets +1 bonus to all defenses when within 5 squares of spirit companion.

Barbarian gets +1 bonus to AC and Reflex when raging.

These are just examples, not well thought out. I'm just wondering if that sort of thing would be more acceptable to those who find Hide Armor Expertise to be excessive.

 

[Dr_Ruminahui]

My own feeling (and that of my players) is to avoid conditional bonuses - there is enough to keep track of (and forget) in this game as there is.

Now, if its "when you are raging", that's not too bad, as its a condition which lasts continuously for multiple turns, and its something that the players will be paying attention to already, as it triggers other stuff as well.

The shaman one, however... not only do you need to recheck to see if he meets the condition every time the shaman is attacked, but you also need to do so in reference to the map (which is particulary a problem for effects that occur outside of that player's turn, as they aren't likely to be paying too much attention to the map). IMHO, this makes it even harder to track, and as a player I would likely either not take it, or take it and ending up swapping it (as I'm about to do for my Sorceror's Distant Advantage) because I forget to use it.

 

[holywhitetrash]

Please excuse the slight tangent, but how would people feel about attempts to improve defenses for Shamans, etc., by means other than armor proficiencies, ability-shifting (Con instead of Dex), or flat bonuses?

Examples:

Shaman gets +1 bonus to all defenses when within 5 squares of spirit companion.

Barbarian gets +1 bonus to AC and Reflex when raging.

These are just examples, not well thought out. I'm just wondering if that sort of thing would be more acceptable to those who find Hide Armor Expertise to be excessive.

the problem i have with the feat is it makes there ac just as high if not better than the warden so yea i would have no problem with your examples