sandbox campaign - map size/scale?

[Raven Crowking]

First off, I will make my usual mention - that this is going to be a sandbox game has no bearing on the question.

From there, when I run a game the answer is simple - the map has to cover the area you expect the PCs to roam around in. Some entire campaigns never leave a single city, others roam multiple worlds. This is one of those things the DM gets to set for his game, and some of the flavor of your campaign will come out of that choice.

He looks, but he does not see.

In a sandbox game, the defining crteria is that where the PCs roam is not one of those things the DM gest to set for his game, except in the most basic of ways.

In an AP, you need to develop no more than the areas that appear in the AP. In a sandbox, you need to at least sketchily develop any area that the PCs could reach. Obviously, areas closer to the starting area are better to develop more fully, but there is nothing in a sandbox which prevents the PCs from heading 60 miles north or 2,000 miles south, apart from what they encounter en route.

Prepping for an upcoming sandbox game, I started with a 11 x 17 sheet on a scale of 1 hex = 60 miles. I then decided where on that map I would like play to begin, and am in the process of creating nine 11 x 17 focus maps at a scale of 1 hex = 10 miles. This is a good scale for general play.

Some areas need closer focus, such as areas around major known dungeons, the PC's starting area, etc. These are scaled down to 1 hex = 1 mile, on 8 1/2 x 11 paper, three-holed to fit into a GM's notebook.

At each scale, the types of features shown are different.

1 hex = 60 miles is just to give me an idea of what the world is like, so that I know what countries are where, what sorts of stories travellers might tell, etc.

1 hex = 10 miles is a general game play scale, where major sites, major lairs, major towns, villages, and cities, etc., can be marked. Smaller lairs, and smaller adventure sites might not be marked.

1 hex = 1 mile is a good scale for focused play, where the players will spend a lot of time within the vicinity of a feature (such as a starting village, a major dungeon, etc.), and allows the GM to include outlying features that would be lost on a larger scale, as well as minor lairs that might cause PCs problems (or provide opportunities) as they explore the area's main feature.


RC

 

[Mark]

First off, I will make my usual mention - that this is going to be a sandbox game has no bearing on the question.

From there, when I run a game the answer is simple - the map has to cover the area you expect the PCs to roam around in. Some entire campaigns never leave a single city, others roam multiple worlds. This is one of those things the DM gets to set for his game, and some of the flavor of your campaign will come out of that choice.

The DM doesn't restrict where the PC will roam in a sandbox game which is precisely why that has bearing on the question. One answer is to start with a player map that has no grid (as suggested above) and expound on areas that are explored with more detailed maps as players settle in and are attracted to specific areas. A lot of design for a sandbox setting comes after the players have immersed themselves and made some choices. Be ready to wing it in the early going and to switch gears later on if the players take left turns. Doing too much advance work can be the downfall of some DMs trying to run a sandbox because they can lead themself to feel that they need to steer the players toward areas they have detailed.


*edit* ninja'd by RC

 

[Umbran]

The word "sandbox" includes in it the word "box".

In the archetypal sandbox/status-quo game, the GM presents the players with a pre-populated world, and tells the players they can go anywhere within it, and do what they want. There is no predetermined plot they are intended to follow. That is the operational heart and essence of the sandbox, as far as I am concerned.

"World" is an arbitrary thing. There is no particular reason why it must be an entire spherical planetary body. Or a whole continent. Or a whole nation. Or a single plane of existence. As a practical matter, a particular GM can only come up with a finite amount of material with which to pre-populate his world. That material has to be spread over some particular area. Even if the GM intends to allow the players to leave that area later, the initial map ought to contain that area that is pre-populated - the area the GM intends them to work in initially.

There is nothing wrong with a GM saying, "My sandbox is this one city - please come and play in it."

 

[Herobizkit]

Also, there's no reason why your sandbox campaign can not also be a "points-of-light" campaign.

When you play online games such as Bardur's Gate, and you have to get from one "area" to the next, does it matter how far A to B is? To me, all that matter is that you got there unhindered (or not) and you're off on your next adventure.

Maps are useful for describing where places are in relation to one another, but the only reason to know how far is if it's important... and that's only if things are moving to/from an area that could affect it somehow.

 

[Mark]

The word "sandbox" includes in it the word "box".

Not in the sense that it is meant to limit the in-game exploration, just in that it is a world within a world (our world).

 

[Vegepygmy]

There is nothing wrong with a GM saying, "My sandbox is this one city - please come and play in it."

I concur. Insisting that it's not a "sandbox" unless the players have some inalienable right to explore outside the DM-defined boundaries is silly.

But if it will avoid pointless arguing, I'll happily call my campaign a "quasi-sandbox."

@OP: Some food for thought here: GROGNARDIA: Small is Beautiful

 

[ashockney]

Sandbox

I've been running a 4e hybrid sandbox game the last several months.

At the players request, we chose our sandbox to be Skullport, in the Forgotten Realms. The players found it, and the unique characters they could develop in that realm compelling for storytelling.

I broke the city into a 5x5 hex grid map, and developed a random "events" generator. I took this idea from the guys at Critical Hits. Prior to each session, I roll up random events in that occur in the sandbox, which the players can choose to engage or completely ignore. They've found it to commonly be a "path of least resistance" particularly to information gathering and discovery. It also has given them a little "spark" to tie in their story and directly influence the outcome of their sandbox.

It is clear to me from running the game, that I think the "box" will grow, once we hit Paragon. Perhaps into something as big as "the North" or "The Underdark North" once we break through. Their individual abilities and accomplishments will outgrow this size, or they would be in direct conflict with all the major players of the city (who are really, really powerful).

So far this has worked out really well.

I think, in summary, the answer to the question is that the sandbox need to "scale" to the campaign, but that in the "heroic" tier, something about the size of a city, with perhaps 200 or so "touchpoints" or locations to choose to interact with.

 

[rounser]

He does go into scale and one thing he states is this: DON'T use hexes as they create the illusion that once someone has been in the hex then they have seen everything.

Talk about throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

So for sake of someone mistakenly thinking they've properly explored an area, dispose of the most powerful device available for making sure discrete areas of wilderness end up containing something of interest?

I use numbered half mile hexes in the microcosmic setting of Thunder Rift. Whether PCs discover the contents of a hex depends on the nature of the contents (i.e. a tower on the plains is more obvious than a hidden lizardman burrow in the swamp), and whether they're actively exploring, hurrying from A to B, or actively trying to avoid encounters. If one of the latter, there's an understanding that the hex isn't fully explored (rate of movement slows for the former).

I'm surprised at this advice, as I thought this guy was supposed to be a sort of sandbox guru.

 

[harpy]

I'm in the process of setting up a "West Marches" sandbox game, but with three DM's diving up the territory so that we can rotate through as both DM's and players.

We're kind of going back and forth on scale, but we're going to be using hexes for the DM maps, as we can't be expected to have a computer on hand for vector graphics, plus counting hexes is pretty easy.

I'm kind of liking the idea of having half-mile hexes for the specific territories. In part because it feels like half a mile is basically as far as someone could typically see in a general rolling hills countryside setting, with trees and hills breaking up the horizon.

That way I can have the players tell me where they are going and I just follow them through the hexes on my map, and in many instances unless they pass through the hex they won't be seeing a lot of landmarks. Of course this varies with elevation and what the landmark is, but house size structures in general would require you to be right in the vicinity.

Further, I can put little details in, groves of trees, small hills, streams and the like. I can fill up the travel with detailed descriptions.

I might bump it up to 1 mile hexes if the half mile is simply too big of a map to handle. I've got to do some experimentation to see what works best.

 

[Shades of Green]

Thank you all for the info and the links - I find them very useful

I'm thinking about creating my own sandbox using a 30x30 hex grid and 5 (or 6) miles per hex. The idea is to have a long, somewhat wide, snaking valley in the mountains, with most settlements being inside the valley while the mountains being a more dangerous area (and also much colder - the higher parts of them frozen year-long). The upper end of the valley, reaching a mountain pass and a frozen lost city, will also be frozen year-long, while the lower parts of the valley will have snow-free spring and summer allowing for agriculture to take place.

So early-level play will take place in the summer of the lower valley in relatively good climate conditions and with relatively low-level monsters, and in higher levels the player could scale the mountains or go higher into the valley and eventually reach the frozen lost city.