Is an 18/19/20 an absolute must?

[Nifft]

1. Lol, you still don´t get it...

Orc --> Drow No level difference, as you can level up and level down as you like

Problem: What do players expect when they see the enemy?

An Orc which is powerful melee combatant that relies on a charge, drow: darkness or fearyfire...

If the PCs haven't met a particular monster (or type of monster) before, they should expect to be surprised.

For example, the kobolds in KotSF sling napalm. Is slinging napalm now a kobold exclusive? Are all kobolds now required to sling napalm? Will the PCs feel ripped off if anyone else ever throws fire at them?

The answer is no. Critters have a lot of powers, and if you want an orc who can teleport, it's not hard to make him do so plausibly.

2. I don´t have to show you a specific build as it is obvious that daggermaster is not the best choice, if you wield a rapier and if have greater strength than dexterity and thus can make good use of at will twin strike...
... also i don´t have to put items into any build, as I don´t consider (magical) items core to a build...


edit: and the 18/12/16/8/14/10 line are stats... and brawny rogue is a build... maybe you need to read more careful...

so that you needn´t read older post again:

e.g.: a longtooth brawny rogue with a rapier, paragon multiclass as ranger is arguably better than a longtooth shifter brawny rogue wih rapier taking daggermaster as paragon path...

edit: if you allow for dragon magazine, a scimitar dancing duelist brawny rogue also looks quite workable...

stats: 18/12/16/10/14/8 after racial

Brawny Rogues have a lot of options, because Str is supported by a LOT of paragon paths.

Sure, Daggermaster is a bad choice for someone who doesn't use a dagger. But so what? That's not the only paragon path available. It's a very good path for crit-fishing, but most PCs don't go fishing for crits.

If you want this guy to showcase his Strength, I'd look into some of the Fighter paragon paths, like Kensei. (Fighters also have some nice powers which allow you to add both your Str and Dex to attack and damage.) Hell, even the Ranger path Horizon Walker looks better (because Darkvision is awesome for a Rogue).

This really isn't the right thread for this, though. Start a new one if you don't want to drop it.

Ciao, -- N

 

[KarinsDad]

Whether someone is comfortable giving up character aspects in order to roleplay or not, the end result that gets them to roleplay more their group to have more fun is the right one.

Fixed that for you.

 

[keterys]

I'm not entirely sure you did, though it's _also_ a good point that having fun is always the goal, regardless of any religious fervor over powergaming or not.

I guess if you've got a group where one guy continually has character ideas that are really bad mechanically, if the DM lets him play what he wants and lets someone else reskin things so that the 'good options' match that, then it might improve the enjoyment of the group to allow both powergaming and the roleplay choice.

Basically, it's a flaw in the system that it might potentially make the mechanics a limiter on roleplaying, so if there is a convenient way to get around that and it doesn't hurt the enjoyment of the table, then more roleplay or happier player, either way, good.

 

[Infiniti2000]

Is choosing the best weapon available to you powergaming?

Yes, of course it is. By definition, that's what "best" means. I assume, of course, you're talking mechanically when you say best. And, not "Oh, I got a wet noodle as my weapon; it's simply the best!"

Is that a bad thing?

No, of course not. This question is almost a non sequitur but let me tie it back to the point. What would be a bad thing would be saying you want to use one weapon but deciding that the mechanics don't work for you and instead you start using some other weapon's mechanics. The only purpose for this would be a mechanical advantage, i.e. powergaming, which is all reskinning does (from a PC's perspective*).

* Realize of course, and I think said this earlier, that reskinning from a DM's perspective is totally different.

Assuming you have a particular mechanical build in mind, refluffing that does not affect balance.

This is where we differ. It's not that I disagree with the comment, it's that I disagree with how you prioritize it. This isn't about balance, for one thing. It's about whether reskinning is powergaming or not, isn't it? Here's a different phrase that captures the essence as I see it: Assuming you have a particular character concept (fluff build) in mind, rebuilding it mechanically to optimize capabilities is powergaming.

Both might be true and we both might agree to each, but you can't only look at it from your perspective. Either you see our point or you don't. Continually saying it doesn't affect balance is an irrelevant side comment.

 

[eamon]

Well, I really don't see your point, so I suppose my perspective differs here.

I don't think DM reskinning is fundamentally that different from PC reskinning; I don't think reskinning is fundamentally only a powergaming option (generally, you'll fluff into something that does not yet exist at all), I don't think powergaming is a problem, and I don't think it's possible to make valid generalizations about fluff at this level (there is a shared common D&D fluff, but it's pretty basic, and distinctions like eladrin vs. elf are well within the range of inter-campaign distinction).

So, I see that you obviously don't like reskinning, but I don't understand why you believe it to be universally a bad idea.

 

[Nai_Calus]

(generally, you'll fluff into something that does not yet exist at all)

Yes, and that's perfectly fine as long as whatever you're making isn't completely ridiculous.

Refluffing something to be something else that *does* exist is where it gets 'wait what no just play the damned race'.

 

[Derren]

Is choosing the best weapon available to you powergaming? Is that a bad thing?

"I want to play a dagger wielding rogue, but that weapon is simply so bad. Can I use the fullblade stats for my dagger?"

Yes, that is powergaming and anti-roleplaying.

 

[Mengu]

"I want to play a dagger wielding rogue, but that weapon is simply so bad. Can I use the fullblade stats for my dagger?"

Yes, that is powergaming and anti-roleplaying.

No, that is breaking the rules.

If you play a rogue with dagger stats, but you want it to look like a fullblade, or if you play a barbarian with fullblade stats, and want it to look like a dagger, these would be examples of reskinning.

 

[Turtlejay]

Finally, something on this thread I want to comment about! Jeez!

That kind of reskinning I don't like. You want to use a fullblade's stats, but carry a dagger? Part of the Fullblade is its size and weight. You can't just handwave that. I love the idea of the Assassin, but hate that they are geared towards high [w] powers, and those bit [w]'s are attatched to big weapons. Hardly the assassin I picture, sneaking up to the magistrate with an 8 foot sword on his back. I actually built up one that used a spiked chain, because I felt it was the highest [w] one could get and still have it concealed.

Allowing willy-nilly reskinning pretty much invalidates that kind of thinking. You want to play a Gnome Barbarian? Then do it. Don't play one but sub some other race for the mechanics. . .that kind of reskinning is the *cowards* way out.

I do approve of some kinds of reskinning. I remember a recent post here where someone asked about the impact of their Dwarven Swordmage using hammers instead of swords. One suggestion was to just use sword stats, and call it a hammer. Since this has little impact on balance, is not abusing any rules, and is actually injecting *more flavor* into the game, I approve. If it had gone the other way, where he wanted to use a hammer as a dwarf to benefit from Dwarven Weapon Training and make it look like a sword, then it becomes cheese and I hate it.

Jay

 

[UngeheuerLich]

If the PCs haven't met a particular monster (or type of monster) before, they should expect to be surprised.

For example, the kobolds in KotSF sling napalm. Is slinging napalm now a kobold exclusive? Are all kobolds now required to sling napalm? Will the PCs feel ripped off if anyone else ever throws fire at them?

The answer is no. Critters have a lot of powers, and if you want an orc who can teleport, it's not hard to make him do so plausibly.


Brawny Rogues have a lot of options, because Str is supported by a LOT of paragon paths.

Sure, Daggermaster is a bad choice for someone who doesn't use a dagger. But so what? That's not the only paragon path available. It's a very good path for crit-fishing, but most PCs don't go fishing for crits.

If you want this guy to showcase his Strength, I'd look into some of the Fighter paragon paths, like Kensei. (Fighters also have some nice powers which allow you to add both your Str and Dex to attack and damage.) Hell, even the Ranger path Horizon Walker looks better (because Darkvision is awesome for a Rogue).

This really isn't the right thread for this, though. Start a new one if you don't want to drop it.

Ciao, -- N

no, lets drop this diskussion... don´t think we will ever agree... but now i consider it a draw as i think my points are at least adressed... and more or less accurate...

and if i never encountered a drow or orc before, you are right of course...

sorry to the opener for derailing this thread...