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Is an 18/19/20 an absolute must?

That kind of reskinning I don't like. You want to use a fullblade's stats, but carry a dagger? Part of the Fullblade is its size and weight. You can't just handwave that. I love the idea of the Assassin, but hate that they are geared towards high [w] powers, and those bit [w]'s are attatched to big weapons. Hardly the assassin I picture, sneaking up to the magistrate with an 8 foot sword on his back. I actually built up one that used a spiked chain, because I felt it was the highest [w] one could get and still have it concealed.

Whether you can conceal a weapon or not is not a game mechanic. It has no bearing on how powerful your character is in combat. Outside of combat if you think this might impact a game a lot, I can see the DM not allowing the reskin. Not a problem. But the act of making a dagger appear like a fullblade or vice versa does not make the character more powerful as far as game mechanics are concerned.

Allowing willy-nilly reskinning pretty much invalidates that kind of thinking. You want to play a Gnome Barbarian? Then do it. Don't play one but sub some other race for the mechanics. . .that kind of reskinning is the *cowards* way out.

Don't see a problem with subbing halfling mechanics for a gnome barbarian. Size however *is* a game mechanic, so if a player tried to reskin a gnome as a half-orc, but still benefit from a goblin totem dagger, that would be breaking the rules. half-orcs are not "small".

I do approve of some kinds of reskinning. I remember a recent post here where someone asked about the impact of their Dwarven Swordmage using hammers instead of swords. One suggestion was to just use sword stats, and call it a hammer. Since this has little impact on balance, is not abusing any rules, and is actually injecting *more flavor* into the game, I approve. If it had gone the other way, where he wanted to use a hammer as a dwarf to benefit from Dwarven Weapon Training and make it look like a sword, then it becomes cheese and I hate it.

It's understandable that you hate it because, the latter example you provide is breaking the rules, and not reskinning. The former example is reskinning.

Basically all I'm trying to say is you can't reskin "half" an item and gain benefit of two rules that were not meant to be used together. If you're reskinning, you go all the way. It's probably a good idea to reskin things that are already close together, instead of far apart on the spectrum of things. For instance my first example of fullblade vs dagger was a poor example because it replaces a two handed heavy weapon with a one handed off-hand light blade. Too many changes. A better example would be say someone in love with Drizzt wants to play a drow with two scimitars. But they don't like the scimitar mechanic, they want bastard swords, but they want the bastard swords to look smaller and curved. The change is nothing but cosmetic. On your character sheet you have a pair of bastard swords. You have the relevant feats for a bastard sword. In your character description, it says your character wields a pair of curved swords. It is merely a cosmetic change.

The best examples of reskinning are probably things you can't otherwise accomplish but need a mechanic for. Say in a campaign I want to use light sabers and laser pistols. So I reskin every light saber as "melee weapon of your choice" and every laser pistol as "ranged weapon of your choice". SO on your character sheet you might have a doublesword, and a longbow. In your character description, you carry a double ended light saber and a blaster. Rules stayed the same, descriptions changed.

An earlier example given was with races. Say in an post apocalyptic earth based campaign, you want the PC's to be Human, because it's a war of one race against many invaders. But you don't want to lose all the options that different races provide for game mechanical flavor. So you make humans from the Alps use Goliath stats, Humans from the Amazons use elf stats, and humans from Scandinavia use Dwarf stats. A player comes up to you and says I want my human to use Tiefling stats, can I be from the Sahara? You quickly make some notes and say yup.

Reskinning is not about gaining a mechanical benefit by bending or breaking a rule somewhere. It's about bringing a vision into play.
 

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Actually if you are hit by a dwarven waraxe which looks like a normal longsword and you are high critted with a base d12 weapon i still think its cheasy... even if you don´t break any rules...

this is also a reason why i don´t like heavy armor expertse so much... you expect someone in hide is more easy to ht than someone in plate, but you are surprised by the opposite...
 

Would you think it were cheesy if someone swung a sword at you and it missed by 1, cause it had a lower proficiency bonus than normal? *curious*
 

this is also a reason why i don´t like heavy armor expertse so much... you expect someone in hide is more easy to ht than someone in plate, but you are surprised by the opposite...

I assume you are talking about Hide Armor Expertise.

Even with an 18 Con, Hide AC at level one is 17, Plate is 18. It is easier to hit Hide. Going up the levels (and assuming a +1 increased items at levels 3, 6, 11, 16, 21, and 26):

Code:
01 17 18
02 18 19
03 19 20
04 20 21
05 20 21
06 22 24 Layered Plate
07 22 24
08 24 25
09 24 25
10 25 26
11 26 28 Gith Plate
12 27 29
13 27 29
14 29 30
15 29 30
16 32 33 Darkhide, Warplate
17 32 33
18 33 34
19 33 34
20 34 35
21 36 37 epic ability score gain in hide, Legion Plate
22 37 38
23 37 38
24 38 39
25 38 39
26 41 43 Elderhide, Godplate
27 41 43
28 43 44
29 43 44
30 44 45

Assuming everything else the same between the two (i.e. if one takes a shield, the other takes a shield, if one takes armor specialization, the other does).

The only way for the Hide AC to match is if the Hide armor PC starts with a 19 or higher Con at level 1.


The only way for it to beat is if the PC is a Barbarian.

Course, Barbarians lose two handed weapon capability if they use a Shield, so the Plate and Shield PC still has as high of an AC (or higher most levels) with a Large Shield as most Barbarians have with Hide Armor Expertise.


Yup, a Barbarian can use 3 feats to get Hide Armor Expertise, Light Shield, and Heavy Shield and have an insanely high AC (1 and sometimes 2 higher than the Plate and Heavy Shield PC). Course, they give up Striker damage doing that.
 

this is also a reason why i don´t like heavy armor expertse so much... you expect someone in hide is more easy to ht than someone in plate, but you are surprised by the opposite...
Optimized hide armor wearers always had a higher AC than plate armor wearers, since the first PHB hit the shelves.

Cheers, -- N
 

The only way for it to beat is if the PC is a Barbarian.

Between the Demigod (or similar Con-raising) Epic Destiny and the Second Skin feat, optimized Barbarians (18 starting Con, takes Hide Armor Expertise and Second Skin feat) should have higher AC than a Plate + Heavy Shield character throughout Epic.

The AC you listed + 3 Barbarian Agility +2 Second Skin (PP) + 1 Demigod stat boost to Con= 50 (at level 30).

Second Skin continues the crummy trend of feats that give (at least) +2 AC, at little to no cost (others: Avenger PH-2 feat, Swordmage AP feat). These feats are probably meant to fix the fact that AC scales 2 worse than monster to-hit in the game's base math (math here).

However, between the fact that some builds might not qualify for them, some builds might qualify but not take them, and some people may not own the book where this fix feat was printed, it's likely to work out poorly (though it certainly doesn't compare to the fiasco of the Expertise feats).
 

this is also a reason why i don´t like heavy armor expertse so much... you expect someone in hide is more easy to ht than someone in plate, but you are surprised by the opposite...

Fighter in Scale with Shield starts with AC 19, Tempest Fighter in Hide with Dex 18 and a doubleweapon starts with AC 19, Warden with 18 Con/Wis in Hide with Shield starts with AC 19, Swordmage in Leather with Int 18 starts with AC 19. AC 17/18 can be attained by a wide variety of combinations from plate AC 18, to cloth AC 18. So the armor someone is wearing should not give the expectation that they will be easier or harder to hit.

In that aspect Hide Armor Expertise is not doing anything wrong. It's the fact that at higher levels a striker can attain higher than defender AC with little investment, that is somewhat bothersome (and Barbarian Agility is mostly to blame for that).
 


Demigod or anything else at epic for +2 to an attribute brings the AC up 1 point further for the light armor guys...
Just for information:

i don´t consider it broken or anything like that. Nor do deny that you could have better AC than a scale wearer before this feat (obviously^^). But before you could notice that those peole were very nimble...

But some of you like to describe their characters without refering to the game mechanics so my argument will be shut down in seconds...

Actually this was one of the points i didn´t like in KOTS:

Kobold dragonshields were described without their scale armor and hadthe highest AC of all kobolds...
I at least expect some hints from the appearance which weakness a character has. And reskinning at will destroys it for me... (not that i do think reskinning is ba per se, but you should at least replace iconic abilities so players can rely on something...)
 

Fighter in Scale with Shield starts with AC 19, Tempest Fighter in Hide with Dex 18 and a doubleweapon starts with AC 19, Warden with 18 Con/Wis in Hide with Shield starts with AC 19, Swordmage in Leather with Int 18 starts with AC 19. AC 17/18 can be attained by a wide variety of combinations from plate AC 18, to cloth AC 18. So the armor someone is wearing should not give the expectation that they will be easier or harder to hit.

In that aspect Hide Armor Expertise is not doing anything wrong. It's the fact that at higher levels a striker can attain higher than defender AC with little investment, that is somewhat bothersome (and Barbarian Agility is mostly to blame for that).
swordmage in leather has a fricking shield flowing around his hand... thats a complete different thing obviously... but i forgot, you reskin it to something noone can notice...
 

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