Jetison the power system and use page 42 only

[Sadrik]

***Updated System Post #31***
Does anyone have ideas on removing the powers system?

I have an idea:
Use page 42 to describe all attack rules.
Characters select attack powers as normal but the names and flavor text are used just as class flavor. Utility powers work as normal.
Characters have a pool of PP equal to 1 PP per level and add their prime stat as a bonus.
Characters recover "spent" PP after a short rest.
Characters recover "burnt" PP after an extended rest.

Attacking:
Damage expressions are always low damage, the DM can award medium and high for good ideas.
Normal damage expressions
1 PP "spent"
Limited damage expressions
2 PP "burnt"

Attack power special effects, conditions, weapons and other stuff. This is very fluid, if the player wants to push a creature then the DM says spend the PP and make an opposed athletics roll. Basically, the player decides the action spends the appropriate amount of PP and the DM describes the skill check or attack check necessary to accomplish the action. This works well for less "mystical" attacks.
More mystical prayers and spells often cause area attacks. As a base, blast is 2, burst is 1, wall is 1 by 1 and line is 3. Characters can increase the base dependent on their level. They get area +1 at 5th level and add +1 at every 5 levels there after.
Conditions can be added to the effect depending on how the player describes the effect.

Anyway, this idea is incomplete I would like to sacrifice some of the variability and complexity in attacks for streamlined attacks that are easy. This idea is incomplete and not for everyone so I am not looking for nay-sayers comments. But feel free to add your insight in getting the system better and more rounded. Below are some further ideas on getting other parts of the game to fit in.

Utility:
Utility powers are selected as normal and used as normal but have a PP cost. Their cost is 3PP. If it is a daily utility the PP are "burnt" and "spent" if it is an at-will or encounter. At-will utility powers cost 1 PP.

Rituals:
I realize that rituals were specifically "siloed" off of the power system so that you did not have to compromise your in-combat utility/attack but it might be interesting to include them in there too. Perhaps rituals can be used two different ways, by "burning" PP equal to the level of the ritual or done the normal way (spend money). Time would still be a constant.

 

[Kzach]

Not too sure about the implementation but I definitely like the idea.

The biggest problem I would think would be the type of group. You couldn't do this with just any group. It'd have to be some very imaginative and pro-active players, otherwise people will feel left behind as the more creative players excel and do lots of cool stuff and others just plod along.

 

[SSquirrel]

For those playing along ta home this is page 42 of the DMG. I was looking at this saying "Page 42...Half Elves?" heh. Yes it's early. Happy Holidays.

 

[Sadrik]

Not too sure about the implementation but I definitely like the idea.

The biggest problem I would think would be the type of group. You couldn't do this with just any group. It'd have to be some very imaginative and pro-active players, otherwise people will feel left behind as the more creative players excel and do lots of cool stuff and others just plod along.

Yeah I am not sure about the implementation either. In concept though, removing the myriad of different attack powers for a more general attacks that are easy to use and universal. This would allow player and gm adjudication on the fly and ultimately take out some of the fiddlyness in 4e.

By the way, I don't want players to "stunt" every attack, the player simply spends their PP and then does the attack and if they want they can describe their attack through their character classes context. By doing this they use the damage expression based on their prime stat (as opposed to simply a basic attack).

Honestly I think to do this properly, each attack possibility would have to be a maneuver. And by maneuver I mean something like aid another, bull rush etc. A lot of thought would have to be put into each maneuver to make them extremely broad so that they can be made to represent any number of attacks. Sort of like an effect based system, like champions, savage worlds or any other myriad of systems that lets the player decide the actual special effects but the game rules on how the power works are constant.

Regardless of the actual implementation of the system, this would only affect attack powers, Utility powers would stay the same other than perhaps giving them a PP cost to use.

 

[Sadrik]

For those playing along ta home this is page 42 of the DMG. I was looking at this saying "Page 42...Half Elves?" heh. Yes it's early. Happy Holidays.

Yes, I figured "page 42" was in the 4e lexicon by now... However 1/2 elves...

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

Pretty much the same idea gets floated every couple of months. The thing is if its going to try to encompass the number of options PCs have now or something similar then you run into the issue of decision paralysis. Not only are players faced with the same range of possibilities they have now, but they also have to figure out how to "roll" a suitable power, then the DM has to figure out if its reasonable, and the player has to manage another pool of resources. My experience says it will be at best no slower than the current system which you can basically think of as a set of pre-designed special maneuvers that have already been packaged up for quick use.

The question is what do you want to gain from this system? It could give you some advantages but there is an associated cost and its hard to say what tradeoffs are good until we know what the goal is.

 

[Sadrik]

Goal: simplify fiddlyness of 20+ classes each using 50+ attack powers (over 1,000 separate attacks) into 20+ classes using 20ish attack maneuvers that improve based on level. So, simplification of the attack portion of the power system. If you gut them, you are left with utility powers, which can remain unchanged.

The complexity in doing this arises when determining which of these maneuvers can be used by which classes and do they get them all or what.

Perhaps, "siloing" the system so that you have a class list of powers to select from and then gain a certain number every few levels. Or you can incorporate them into the feat system, take a feat gain that maneuver. Or you give them based on the class they are and no more. Regardless, memorizing a finite number of powers is easier for the players to deal with and for the DM to deal with.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

It only matters at the table though, at which point you have a PC with between 4 and maybe 20 powers at the outside (at high epic). Compare 4 powers for a 1st level PC to 20 combat maneuvers. I'm thinking combining combat maneuvers is more "fiddly" than just picking from a list of powers.

Is there a way to get variety equal to what's possible with powers is an interesting question. I'm thinking of the more unique things like some of the more powerful dailies. Some of them do some fairly oddball stuff.

I think you may have to live with dailies as well as utilities. Encounter and at-will powers, yeah, I think at the cost of a bit of variety its possible to do something like you're proposing. I guess the only way to find out how well it works for you is to try it out.

 

[Sadrik]

It only matters at the table though, at which point you have a PC with between 4 and maybe 20 powers at the outside (at high epic). Compare 4 powers for a 1st level PC to 20 combat maneuvers. I'm thinking combining combat maneuvers is more "fiddly" than just picking from a list of powers.

It depends on your perspective. A player is not going to have a single character throughout their life as a 4e gamer. Additionally, the DM needs to know a tremendous amount of powers.

Is there a way to get variety equal to what's possible with powers is an interesting question. I'm thinking of the more unique things like some of the more powerful dailies. Some of them do some fairly oddball stuff.

I think you may have to live with dailies as well as utilities. Encounter and at-will powers, yeah, I think at the cost of a bit of variety its possible to do something like you're proposing. I guess the only way to find out how well it works for you is to try it out.

It is that kind of complexity in adjudicating powers that I would like to remove. That said though, I think that many of the powers and even weirder ones can very liberally be filled in with other maneuvers. The objective here is not to duplicate the complexity but to only duplicate the feel, a little easier and a little more subjective.

 

[the Jester]

Goal: simplify fiddlyness of 20+ classes each using 50+ attack powers (over 1,000 separate attacks) into 20+ classes using 20ish attack maneuvers that improve based on level. So, simplification of the attack portion of the power system.

I think that you are actually adding complexity by doing this. Each pc only needs to worry about the powers that they have; the rest you can ignore. You don't need to worry about 20+ classes each using 50+ attack powers (over 1,000 separate attacks) unless you have 20+ pcs each using 50+ attack powers in your game.