Skill XP system and skill caps

[Kerrick]

This is another odd idea I came up with. It sprang from the question: "Where do NPCs get their levels?" The answer: Crafting. Well, not ALL of it is crafting, but a good portion - that's where Experts get their levels, at least.

Crafting represents learning - the first time you make something, you gain experience. The second time you make it, you might do something differently (which could be good or bad), learn a quicker/easier way to do it, or learn a different way to achieve the same end - all of those gain experience. After awhile, of course, there are no further things you can learn from making that item, so you gain no further experience from it.

What's my point, you ask? Well, this system can be applied to PCs just as easily. No longer do they have to rely on killing monsters to gain the lion's share of their XP - if someone wants to RP being a smith or an artificing (making magic items) or a jeweller, he can.

How it works: Every item is assigned a Craft DC. Simply compare the DC to the character's Craft score + 10 (this system assumes the PC is taking 10 on his checks). A successful check means the character gains XP as noted on the table below:

Score -9 or below: 0 XP
Score -8: 1 XP
Score -7: 2 XP
Score -6: 3 XP
Score -5: 5 XP
Score -4: 7 XP
Score -3: 10 XP
Score -2: 15 XP
Score -1: 20 XP
Score +0: 30 XP
Score +1: 40 XP
Score +2: 60 XP
Score +3: 80 XP
Score +4: 100 XP

(These numbers are based on the encounter charts, using a single PC vs. an EL equivalent to the DC. I took 2.5% of the XP gained from such an encounter, so it requires 33 items of equal DC to advance 1 level.)

This system can be applied to other skills, as well - in effect, almost any skill that requires a check against a static DC can gain the PC XP: Appraise, Climb, Craft (any), Decipher Script, Diplomacy (some uses), Disable Device, Forgery, Gather Information, Handle Animal, Heal, Open Lock, Perform*, Spellcraft (anything that's 15 + spell level), Survival (mostly tracking), and UMD.

*These skills require a bit of tweaking; Perform needs DCs for different performances - doing a particularly complicated song well, for example gains XP.

You can even do it for skills that require opposed checks (Hide, MS, and Sleight of Hand), though I'm not sure how to work it. Being able to hone your talents against targets with greater skills than your own is the best way to advance your skillset, obviously; maybe the EL would be equal to the difference between your score and the opponent's, and the roll just determines random chance, like in combat.

----

I mentioned in another thread that I had an idea on how to cap rampant skill/ability bonuses. This is very simple: a scaling cap. At each increment of character level, you simply have a maximum allowed skill/ability bonus (this is from all sources except ability bonus and circumstance). Any bonus past the
maximum is simply not applied. Note that while the bonuses seem low, you also add: base ranks, ability bonus, and the die roll. A L5 character with max ranks, a +2 stat bonus, and +5 on top of that has a +15 bonus, without even rolling the die!

Skill bonuses

L1-5: +5

L6-15: +10

L16-20: +20

L21-30: +30

L31-40: +40

Ability bonuses

L1-5: +4 (each ability, not all abilities total)

L6-15: +6

L16-20: +8

L21-30: +12

L31-40: +16

 

[Hawken]

The one glaring problem you're missing with this is that skills don't have jack to do with class, unless you are an NPC class.

A Commoner who uses his Profession Laborer skill all day, will understandably gain levels as he becomes better at manual labor.

A Fighter who runs around Intimidating people all day isn't going to be a better fighter. A Rogue who sneaks around isn't going to be a better rogue just because he's sneaky.

For NPC classes, the skills make the class. For PC classes, the skills are a byproduct of the class--totally opposite of NPC classes.

The Fighter isn't a good Fighter just because he's scary enough to make you wet your pants. Its the other way around, the Fighter is scary enough to make you wet your pants BECAUSE he's a good Fighter.

Plus, there are all sorts of different ways to gain XP posted in the DMG and a variety of other sources. The Book of Exalted Deeds lists how you can gain XP when you have a Vow of Non-Violence. The Book of Erotic Fantasy lets you gain XP for having sex!

Skills don't and shouldn't get you XP. You get good at skills because you've gotten XP!

 

[Kerrick]

I'm not proposing it as a system for ALL skills, just Craft. I totally agree that running around trying to intimidate or bluff people won't get you XP, but with Craft, you're actually learning something - that's how commoners advance in levels. It's not really something I plan to implement anyway, just something I tossed out. I'd make it an optional rule at best.

The one I'm really interested in is the skill/ability caps. Would it work, and if so, does it need adjustment? I'm not really set on those level spreads - something doesn't feel right, but I can't put my finger on it.

 

[Hawken]

I guess my question should be: Why?

Why the rules? Why just for Craft? What are your reasons for this rule and what do you want to accomplish with it? Is it going to make the game easier or more enjoyable? Does it simplify existing crafting rules or resolve some existing issue with them?

With Craft, you're learning the FIRST time you do it, only. After that, its just repetition. That's why no one plays NPC classes. No one wants to do basket weaving all day long. Granted, being a blacksmith may be good exercise and result in ogre-like shoulders and forearms, but there's no mechanic for that and after the first or second suit of armor you make...boring.

As to the problems with your system: How exactly does the cap work? Where did you get the numbers for the limits? Is it just arbitrary (Oh, +5 llimit sounds good) or did you do a bunch of number crunching? Why can't someone get more than a +5 bonus to a skill just because they're 5th level or less? And why does the cap jump from +5 to +10 just going from 5th to 6th level? A +10 bonus (not counting other modifiers) is just about enough to ensure success on every skill check, so there's really no incentive for going higher than 6th level in your rules. And how do magic items play into this? If I'm 5th level and I have Boots of Striding and Springing that give me +10 to Jump, why can I only use 5 of that +10 bonus? Yes, yes, I know you said crafting, but if you're coming up with general rules like bonus caps and stuff, that would logically have to apply to all skills.

I think we talked about it before on different threads.

If you're wanting to cap more than just skill ranks, then, maybe instead of limiting the bonus, limit the number of bonuses. Limit the bonuses to maybe 2 types; intrinsic (bonus based on the character, their feats, class abilities, etc.), and an extrinsic bonus (due to masterwork tools, circumstance bonus, magic items, etc.).

You could also cap the ability score bonuses (since you're in a 'capping' frame of mind). Maybe limit it to a +1 modifier per 2 or 3 ranks in a skill. A 1st level elf with a 20 Dex and only 4 ranks in Tumble would normally have a +9 modifier, which you might think is too much at 1st level. So, limit his bonus to a +1 mod per 2 ranks, so he gets to apply only +2 of his +5 Dex mod because he's not trained enough in tumbling to have the timing and precision to take full advantage of his natural agility.

You could also maybe change the ability scores around. Raistlin may be a genius and have an awesome Int modifier for the Craft skill, but he's not going to have the brawn or stamina to stand around an anvil all day and pound out a piece of metal into a sword. It doesn't take a lot of brains to learn how to make something, but doing it again and again, ad nauseum does require a bit of brawn and stamina.

For the most part, these rules seem largely unnecessary. People don't play D&D to have craftsman characters. They play to become adventurers and go out and do stuff. The only ones who would even remotely benefit from stuff like this would be NPCs and since they are NPCs you don't need to track or provide XP. If you need an 8th level Expert, give yourself an 8th level Expert. No one needs to know how he got there or how he's so good. They just assume he's that good because he's been doing it for a while. Now, every once in a while, you may get a character with ranks in craft that wants to make something, but more often than not, the only time a character has ranks in a money making skill--except Bards who actually need ranks in perform--(craft, perform, or profession) is so they can get a little extra money in between adventures, pretend they wasted the skill points on character development or want to get a discount on a few items. (Paying only 1/3 the cost in adamantite to craft adamantite full plate would be worth some ranks in craft-armorsmith).

 

[Kerrick]

I guess my question should be: Why?

Why the rules? Why just for Craft? What are your reasons for this rule and what do you want to accomplish with it? Is it going to make the game easier or more enjoyable? Does it simplify existing crafting rules or resolve some existing issue with them?

It wasn't really intended for PCs to become craftsmen; it was a) a way to account for NPCs having their XP (yeah, pointless, I know); and b) a way to reward PCs for making stuff. More or less, it was just an odd idea I had that I thought I'd share.

With Craft, you're learning the FIRST time you do it, only.

Have you ever tried to make stuff, or even do something repetetive? You try different techniques, different materials and processes, until you get a "perfect" solution - one that takes a minimal amount of time and effort and results in good product. That's learning, aka XP.

As to the problems with your system: How exactly does the cap work? Where did you get the numbers for the limits? Is it just arbitrary (Oh, +5 llimit sounds good) or did you do a bunch of number crunching?

I based these on magic item bonuses available at the given level ranges.

And why does the cap jump from +5 to +10 just going from 5th to 6th level?

Maybe it should be 1/2 level +2, so it scales?

A +10 bonus (not counting other modifiers) is just about enough to ensure success on every skill check, so there's really no incentive for going higher than 6th level in your rules.

And therein lies the problem - there's no real incentive for going beyond 6th level in ANY set of rules, because very few DCs exceed 20. I think maybe I keep looking at it the wrong way - I should simply increase the DCs instead of limiting skills.

And how do magic items play into this? If I'm 5th level and I have Boots of Striding and Springing that give me +10 to Jump, why can I only use 5 of that +10 bonus?

I'm not sure how you'd get

I think we talked about it before on different threads.

Yeah, we have - I've had this idea before.

If you're wanting to cap more than just skill ranks, then, maybe instead of limiting the bonus, limit the number of bonuses. Limit the bonuses to maybe 2 types; intrinsic (bonus based on the character, their feats, class abilities, etc.), and an extrinsic bonus (due to masterwork tools, circumstance bonus, magic items, etc.).

We've discussed this too. I ditched the intrinsic/extrinsic system because it was too complicated. It was a good idea, though...

You could also cap the ability score bonuses (since you're in a 'capping' frame of mind). Maybe limit it to a +1 modifier per 2 or 3 ranks in a skill. A 1st level elf with a 20 Dex and only 4 ranks in Tumble would normally have a +9 modifier, which you might think is too much at 1st level. So, limit his bonus to a +1 mod per 2 ranks, so he gets to apply only +2 of his +5 Dex mod because he's not trained enough in tumbling to have the timing and precision to take full advantage of his natural agility.

You could also maybe change the ability scores around. Raistlin may be a genius and have an awesome Int modifier for the Craft skill, but he's not going to have the brawn or stamina to stand around an anvil all day and pound out a piece of metal into a sword. It doesn't take a lot of brains to learn how to make something, but doing it again and again, ad nauseum does require a bit of brawn and stamina.

Interesting idea - different Craft skills require different stats. Any smithing skill would take strength; gemcutting, basketweaving, and glassmaking use Dexterity; painting and such would use Charisma (I guess). This would make the Craft skills much more useful overall, since a wider variety of PCs could use them effectively.

 

[Hawken]

b) a way to reward PCs for making stuff. More or less, it was just an odd idea I had that I thought I'd share.

PCs are rewarded for making stuff by being able to make them at 1/3 cost and not having to go pay someone full price for the same thing and wait the same time. That's reward enough. Unless you are giving them levels in NPC classes, crafting isn't going to get them any XP; making something doesn't make them a better adventurer at all.

Have you ever tried to make stuff, or even do something repetetive? You try different techniques, different materials and processes, until you get a "perfect" solution - one that takes a minimal amount of time and effort and results in good product. That's learning, aka XP.

Yes, but you still learn only the first time you do the different thing. Make chainmail once; you learn. Make Mithril chainmail once; you learn. Make Mithril chainmail again and...repetition because you not only know how to make chainmail, but you know how to make mithril chainmail. Boring. And as I mentioned above, its not XP worthy because it doesn't make someone a better adventurer.

Maybe it should be 1/2 level +2, so it scales?

Your modifiers do scale, just not fast enough and maybe not in the right amount. But then, 1/2 level +2 may not be right either. At 10th level, that's only a +7 bonus, or +12 at 20th. Pretty weak at those levels.

Interesting idea - different Craft skills require different stats. Any smithing skill would take strength; gemcutting, basketweaving, and glassmaking use Dexterity; painting and such would use Charisma (I guess). This would make the Craft skills much more useful overall, since a wider variety of PCs could use them effectively.

Yeah, it does kind of explain why blacksmiths are strong but not composing literary classics in their off-time, and why wizards don't take up that trade.

But its kind of a moot point. Craft is an interesting skill--for NPCs. But think about it, it generally takes days or weeks to make something. PCs aren't going to waste that kind of time and party members sure as hell aren't going to wait. Its something for PCs to keep busy with during off-time between adventurers, but its damn boring if that skill gets called into play (and not QUICKLY glossed over "you succeed/fail; move on" ) during an adventure.

 

[Kerrick]

PCs are rewarded for making stuff by being able to make them at 1/3 cost and not having to go pay someone full price for the same thing and wait the same time. That's reward enough. Unless you are giving them levels in NPC classes, crafting isn't going to get them any XP; making something doesn't make them a better adventurer at all.

Eh. It was an idea.

Your modifiers do scale, just not fast enough and maybe not in the right amount. But then, 1/2 level +2 may not be right either. At 10th level, that's only a +7 bonus, or +12 at 20th. Pretty weak at those levels.

Yeah, I just tossed that out. I knew it was low... maybe level +5. This gives you +15 at L10 and +25 at L20. Course, that's pretty close to expected bonuses anyway, but it does curb powergaming a bit.

But its kind of a moot point. Craft is an interesting skill--for NPCs. But think about it, it generally takes days or weeks to make something. PCs aren't going to waste that kind of time and party members sure as hell aren't going to wait. Its something for PCs to keep busy with during off-time between adventurers, but its damn boring if that skill gets called into play (and not QUICKLY glossed over "you succeed/fail; move on" ) during an adventure.

Our old group used it occasionally, and my revised Craft rules make things a lot faster/easier to make (time isn't based on gp cost, which was a stupid rule). But yeah, I'll agree - it's mostly for NPCs.

 

[garrowolf]

Reverse the problem

As I see it crafting isn't your problem. It's actually the XP system.

The system I use is that I dropped the concept of XP altogether. Basically XP is an exercise for game developers and GMs to figure out how fast they want their players to gain a new level. They come up with tables and all kinds of stuff to do this. They play with how many XP they give out by playing with the number of creatures and challenge ratings and that sort of thing.

I use a system that I got from Monte Cook's World of Darkness. Just decide how many sessions you want to equal a level. If you meet often then it would be more per level, if you meet less often then less per level. I use four sessions per level. If we have a session that we got nothing done in then it can count as a 1/2 session or not at all. At the end of the fourth session they level.

They get Hero points to reward good role play or clever action on the spot and for finishing a story. Otherwise they level because of time in game.

You don't have to worry about characters getting behind. If they don't contribute then will notice more quickly because everyone else is getting Hero points.

Then Role Playing is based on Role Playing and not number crunching. You pay more attention to the story and less to a bunch of tables.


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