Are you a refluffer?

Why? When something works exactly the same, why should they look completely different?

I dunno. Why does a Ford Taurus look different than Volkswagen Beetle? They're both passenger cars. Why should they look completely different?

And thats why I don't like refluffing. Such things should also have a mechanical difference and not just be exactly the same thing with a different texture.

You're asking for a lot. Things used to be crafted by hand, you see. So the sword made by Bob is going to be slightly different than the sword made by Joe. Are you really suggesting that every single sword in the game needs unique stats?

Because that's exactly what you're suggesting when you say that letting Bob cast a blue fireball and Bill cast a green fireball is going "just plain silly".

Add your own fluff to powers as long as it is appropriate to the mechanics...

If you refluff an axe to a dagger however i am no amused...
imagine players seeing a small guy without visible weapons... he suddenly draws a dagger which deals 1d12 damage...

In general fluff and mechanics must match so well that players can still anticipate from what they see... if they can´t rely on descriptions they are helpless...

This, OTOH, makes perfect sense.

Fluff should still match the mechanics. If the fluff and the mechanics are dissonant, then you have a problem.

But there are lots of ways to describe "1d4 points of force damage unerringly strikes a target at range".
 

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Completely disagree, but I suppose this is a matter of what the game is to you.

If the game is a tactical simulator, then being able to easily identify threats is extremely important.

If the game is a way to tell a story about "real" characters, then refluffing the familiar to induce a sense of wonder is not only desirable... it is *necessary*.
I don't think that is the delineating line. ;) We play very combat-and-tactics focused, but refluffing is not a problem, it is a good method for the DM to get interesting monsters that fit into the story.

In some games - for example D&D 4E - the individual effects you "fluff" are described by common game terms that you know you can interact with. A 3E refluffled Magic Missile might be problematic for the tactician because he doesn't know that a simple Shield spell can protect him from it (unless the DM tells him it's just Magic Missile, which might beat the purpose - and should it make sense from the fluff that "Shield" protects against it? Perhaps, perhaps not).
But in this case, the entire magic missile is one game element that has one other game element that specifically interacts with it. If each power/spell/ability is build from several building blocks (like "force damage", "ranged", "targets reflex"), the re-fluffing will retain these building blocks. The tactician can interact with the specifically chosen building blocks as usual.
 

Just as I read "spear" as a general term for a class of variant weapons that all involve a blade on the end of a long haft, I read "magic missile" as a general term for a class of variant starting-level spells that all involve doing a base amount of damage from a distance.

I think even 4E has a distinction between halberd and spear and 3E has quite a lot of different weapons which are "a shaft with a blade on the end"
Seems that would foster more creativity, not less.
See below.
I'm afraid I don't follow here. By allowing players to reskin their spells, just as I allow the villains to reskin theirs, there is a wider variety of creativity within the game. If you allow a reskinning that is stealthier in one way but also more flamboyant in another, then you encourage creative use of that spell. You'll have to explain a little more in detail about how a spell that always looks and acts exactly the same fosters more creativity in a game, because I'm not quite getting it.
Problem is that going by the part you quoted you left out a very important sentence and thus took this out of context.

We may have a different idea what "creativity" is. Imo, creativity is using what you have for the best effect, not reflavour what you have so it fits the situation better than the standard version.
With simple reflavouring you will end up in situations where "my magic missile is better than your magic missile". When you are fine with that ok, but imo this is unfair towards the players. And when you don't want this to happen you limit the players creativity by asking them not to be creative or reduce the flavour by ignoring obvious differences.
And then is also breaks versimilitude that spells can have vastly different looks, etc. but do 100% the same.
The latter would be better, but what we're describing here is in the absence of any "storm cleric spells," denying players the chance to play, or fight against, storm clerics until someone comes up with unique rules for storm clerics.

So why not spend the time used for reflavouring into making slightly different storm based spells?
We don't worry about the refluff being "better than the original" because that's kind of the point. If the original flavor was the best possible, nobody would want to change it. If they do, it must be lacking in some way, yes? At least for some groups. Like mine.

I on the other hand think its unfair that someones spells are much better because he reflavours them someone who doesn't.
 

I think even 4E has a distinction between halberd and spear and 3E has quite a lot of different weapons which are "a shaft with a blade on the end"

And there are distinctions between magic missiles and other low-level spells that do damage. The presence of these spells doesn't make "magic missile" unworkable as a class of spells that vary by their creator but all have the same abstract mechanical effect, just as "spear" is a class of weapons that vary by their creator but all do the same abstract mechanical die of damage.

We may have a different idea what "creativity" is. Imo, creativity is using what you have for the best effect, not reflavour what you have so it fits the situation better than the standard version.

"Reflavor so it fits the situation better" isn't what I'm talking about. "Reflavor so it fits the character better" is what I'm talking about. I'm talking about the swamp witch whose magic missiles appear as green, faintly sickly bolts of witchfire every time she casts them, as opposed to the alchemist whose magic missiles appear as shimmering golden bolts of force with alchemical sigils hovering in their center every time he casts them. A character might find an advantage in the right situation (though it's super-rare), but they aren't guaranteed that situation every time. It would be up to the DM to make sure that the situation recurs all the time to grant them a real advantage. (And at that point, the problem becomes minute compared to comparable activities, such as using undead all the time: a real way to hose a 3e rogue, or give the 4e character with lots of radiant damage a serious power-up.)

The thing I'm looking for here is a roleplaying advantage. I find these really important. At its heart, D&D has a lot of silly improbabilities that can knock you out of immersion — it's part of the game's charm, and I love it, but I also value anything that will allow players to focus on what their character sees rather than the rulebooks. I want them to see "orc dragonpriest," not "orc 5th-level cleric, what domains do you think he has?" And I want them to think of each other's characters as "Aaron's giant-blooded mystical librarian," not "Aaron's goliath bard."

And of course, not every reskin is allowable. You can't reskin a magic missile as "A wound opens up on the enemy, and nobody knows where it came from!" You're still a caster, and spellcasting is still noticeable. This is less true of things like 4e monster reskins, but the nature of that particular edition is that the unpredictability of monsters is supposed to be present, and players have plenty of advantages to compensate.

With simple reflavouring you will end up in situations where "my magic missile is better than your magic missile". When you are fine with that ok, but imo this is unfair towards the players. And when you don't want this to happen you limit the players creativity by asking them not to be creative or reduce the flavour by ignoring obvious differences.

Well, I look at it like this. If you reskin, you may limit the players' creativity or reduce the flavor in circumstances where a player would like a reskin that grants them an unfavorable amount of advantage.

If you don't reskin, you limit the players' creativity and reduce the flavor all the time. The swamp witch and the alchemist have exactly the same flavor to their spells. The death-priest's "cause wounds" just makes sword wounds appear, as does the fire-priest's, although it would be more creative and flavorful if one created wounds that resembled necrosis and the other created wounds that resembled horrible burns.

I'm willing to accept a small chance of "sometimes it might not work as well as a player would like" to in order to get "the players are encouraged to make their characters distinctive and singular with every new power they pick up."

And then is also breaks versimilitude that spells can have vastly different looks, etc. but do 100% the same.

There I don't agree at all, because the game mechanics are so incredibly abstract in the first place. A "hit point" is not exactly something that always means the exact same thing. Having exactly the same abstract handwave of mechanics doesn't imply the same in-character effects: it's why totally different weapons might roll the same dice for damage despite one piercing and one bludgeoning, or paralysis might be the result of a venom, a magical curse, or a psychic effect.

This abstraction's a good thing. It means you can represent a wide variety of in-character effects without having to devise a new mechanic for each one. I like to take advantage of it.

So why not spend the time used for reflavouring into making slightly different storm based spells?

Because you get more spells via reflavoring. For one, you can reflavor a dozen spells in the time it takes you to create a new spell that's all-but-perfectly balanced with the old: it takes me the same amount of time to reskin a caster's entire spell set (particularly in 4e) as it would to create a new spell from scratch — assuming it was balanced, of course. For another, there are only so many negligible mechanical variations you can get out of one spell if you need them. With reskinning, that's not a concern. For yet another, you don't have to keep track of all those negligible differences; sure, if you like them and they're the point of spellcasting, that's not a downside, but if you like casters with a lot of variety, they add up fast. And of course, reskinning allows you to have personalized spells even without shifting schools: green fire rather than red, a shield spell that takes the form of a transparent face, and so on.

For me, it's far and away the most expedient answer, and the end result doesn't detract anything from the actual game play when the time comes around. I gladly admit that for these reasons, not everyone would want to play in my game, but it's okay. There's only so much room around the table anyhow.

I on the other hand think its unfair that someones spells are much better because he reflavours them someone who doesn't.

I've never seen "much better" come into it, though. Saying that your magic missiles look like writhing crimson serpents or that your fireball manifests as a bright flash in your eye just before it detonates elsewhere never really granted any advantage at all. Sure, you can grant a slight advantage if you want, but I've never seen a reskin that would turn a 1st-level spell into a 2nd-level spell. Those are easy to catch. And villains don't need to be precisely balanced. If you're throwing a 6th-level party against an 8th-level villain for a dramatic fight, it isn't really relevant if his "4th-level" Bloody Sacrifice spell could achieve "5th-level" utility in a situation other than the present battlefield.

I think in order to exert a much better advantage for reskinning, you would need both a player who is terribly hungry to find every game advantage possible, and a GM who doesn't see the difference between slight advantage and great advantage (or doesn't care). I don't play in groups like that, but I concede that others do. I think that combination will have problems with a lot of things, though, and reskinning is but one of many worries.
 

In D&D magic is science. All spells and magic items always work the same way, always require the same components and are always of the same rank. If you want unquantifiable magic play Ars Magica where wizards can create spells on the fly.
According to your own sig, this should just be your opinion and not a hard fact.

Perhaps instead of arguing from the assumption that statements such as the above are self-evidently true, it would be more productive to give your opinion why you think they should be true.

For starters, perhaps you could address the following questions:

1. Why do you think that giving a spell different visual effects without changing its mechanical effects (range, casting time, damage, etc.) is bad?

2. Why do you think that changing the description of spellcasting without changing the requirements of spellcasting (substituting a different verbal component or a different somatic component, for example) is bad?
 

I We may have a different idea what "creativity" is. Imo, creativity is using what you have for the best effect, not reflavour what you have so it fits the situation better than the standard version.
I personally think that both are examples of creativity.

With simple reflavouring you will end up in situations where "my magic missile is better than your magic missile". When you are fine with that ok, but imo this is unfair towards the players. And when you don't want this to happen you limit the players creativity by asking them not to be creative or reduce the flavour by ignoring obvious differences.
I think here is where a bit more clarity would be useful. Are you assuming that the spell will have different mechanics in addition to different flavor? I think many of us are assuming that the mechanics will be exactly the same even though the description is different.

And then is also breaks versimilitude that spells can have vastly different looks, etc. but do 100% the same.
Which version of reality are you simulating?

Even in math, there is not always a one-to-one relation betwen numbers. There are many-to-one relationships in which applying the same function to two different numbers has the same result (one example is a simple square function where the square of -2 and the square of 2 are exactly the same) and one-to-many relationships in which there may be more than one result that could be obtained from applying a function to a number (these are usually the reverse of many-to-one relationships; for example, the square root of 4 is 2 and -2).

If many-to-one relationships exist in math, I have no problems envisioning a world where different mages from different schools of magic can achieve the same result through different approaches to spellcasting. To use an even better example, I could communicate exactly the same idea in English, French or Mandarin even though I might be using different sounds to do so in each language.
 

Except that Magic Missiles all do exactly the same thing. They are not slightly different like your collection of breads in your post. A baguette isn't just a long pita. The green, round magic missile is exactly the same as the red pyramid shaped one. No difference at all mechanically.

And mechanically, there is no difference between eating a baguette or a pita. With either, your stomach fills up with carbohydrates and you stop being hungry. They taste different and they look different, but they both produce the same result. In that sense, yes, a baguette is just a long, narrow pita.

I make it very clear to my players... When they want to re-describe something, no matter how they describe it the mechanics do not change and they will gain no advantages based on that description alone. A Magic Missile that looks like a swarm of bees will not poison the enemy, nor will a Magic Missile that looks like a flaming arrow light anything on fire.

If they want a different effect, they should choose a different spell... and they are free to describe that spell, within reason, however they like.

And yes, there have been many instances in which I have, as the DM, vetoed a re-description, because the players were purposefully trying to gain an unfair advantage over the original effect or piece of equipment.
 

And mechanically, there is no difference between eating a baguette or a pita. With either, your stomach fills up with carbohydrates and you stop being hungry. They taste different and they look different, but they both produce the same result. In that sense, yes, a baguette is just a long, narrow pita.

The princess like baguettes a lot and not so much the pita when you are inclined to seduce her ie going for something that is outside the basic effect (you might get a bonus because you used the baguette). Flavour makes a difference but its the corner cases that are handled by something other than the basic rule (in 4e those are generally short handed as page 42)
 

The Ghost wrote:
If a player wants to describe their Magic Missile as "three faeries streaking across the sky with tiny swords made of Jello"

That is freakin' awesome. Next time I play I'm taking a bottle of Absynthe and using fairy special effects for all my spells!
 


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