Stuff I want (From you 3pp People)

[Rechan]

Back onto the original brainstorming, something I would like to see if a book of patrons. Like what WotC has been doing with warlocks, but for all of the classes. And for those classes that aren't open, the power sources still are. So you can have general divine and primal patrons. Heck, I'll have to double check, but I believe the list of all planned power sources are in the SRD, so you can even have shadow patrons and so on.

Sounds like a good idea to me. With a caveat.

The flaw in this is that it depends on the monster FAMILY. Some monsters are going to jive with the buyer, some aren't. It depends on both the person and the presented thing.

 

[Mark]

Yuan-Ti

Not to naysay but I don't believe those are available to use.


Here's a thought. Why not go at this as a patronage project inversely? Someone like Scribble or a board of directors who all wish to see a particular project persued could get a certain number of patrons to pledge to purchase the final project and leave all future rights to the publisher if they step up to write and produce it. Some steps toward making this happen would include -

1. Starting a website (or just an EN World Group) to administer the project.

2. Maybe create two or three ideas, or pick the ones in this thread, to choose from for the project.

3. Get some legal advice as to which are truly possibly under the GSL.

4. Run a survey to find out which has the most support (then see how many of those who supported the other ideas would switch over).

5. Submit your proposal to all gaming news sites to open call for publishers.

6. Post the publisher response proposals and let the patrons vote to proceed on the most popular.


If your ideas are possible and have enough support, this way might just get something done. Heck, the Cooperative Dungeon projects we set up on this very site were grassroots projects and CMG published them for free. If you have patrons ready to pay for a project, I don't see how it could miss.

http://www.enworld.org/forum/general-rpg-discussion/72438-lets-make-dungeon.html


http://www.enworld.org/forum/general-rpg-discussion/88988-cooperative-dungeon-iv-update.html

 

[jmucchiello]

BTW, there's nothing really stopping you from doing a before level one book. Just define your terms- make a bunch of new classes with the 'newbie' power source, explain what that power source means in the context of your newbiequest custom setting, and work from there.

When I tell you that it can't be done under the GSL, do you think I might have spent more time than YOU did considering it? Maybe?

I'm not trying to derail the thread into Joe's Lament about the GSL. The fact is you are asking "why don't 3pps do such and such?" Well there are only three answers to that: 1) They have no interest in it (and you do not attempt to sell any product the writer has no interest in, never!), 2) The GSL forbids it (no real way to get around that one) or 3) No, there really is no market for such and such.

Now, obviously this thread makes #3 a bit more iffy. Perhaps there is a market for some of this stuff. But if there were, there would already be 3pps filling that market. Both Mark and I have said this. Don't believe us, ask more 3pps.

Thus either issue #1 or #2 is the stopping point. In my case the GSL is the issue. However, the GSL does not stop the Minor NPCs and mini-delves and those products. That leaves only #1. And that was the first thing I said in this thread.

Mark reverse patronage project sounds like an interesting experiment. Put your money where your mouth is. You say there is a market. Cause the product to exist and prove us wrong with its bountiful sales.

 

[BLACKDIRGE]

Great thread. I am definitely taking notes.

I'd also like to mention that I (Blackdirge Publishing) do have products in the works that reflect some of the ideas and requests in this thread.

BD

 

[Rechan]

Great thread. I am definitely taking notes.

I'd also like to mention that I (Blackdirge Publishing) do have products in the works that reflect some of the ideas and requests in this thread.

BD

Why are you holding all those cards to your chest, sir?

 

[catastrophic]

When I tell you that it can't be done under the GSL, do you think I might have spent more time than YOU did considering it? Maybe?

No, because you're clearly hung up on semantics. You can't rewrite class progression, big deal. Stop thinking inside the box that WOTC operates in.

You can define a class to have any kind of powers you want. Using that method, you can define a bunch of newbie classes, based on anything- you could even have one superclass with access to different powers based on the power source and role it's emulating. These powers can be flavored and built based on the newbieness of the classes- and the class can also have limited hit points, defences, ect, as well.

You could do all sorts of cool stuff- you could have a fear/heroism mechanic to add some depth, so that the classes actually do something with their powers. Maybe newbie classes only fight well if they're feeling brave, and they have to maintain their courage value in the face of scary monsters.

On top of that, you can use the existing mechanics in novel ways- maybe when a newbie PC gets bloodied, their player can choose to have them go unconcious as if they were at 0 hit points, but doing so gives the other PCs a healing effect or a courage boost.

The GSL doesn't stand in the way of that kind of design.

Now, obviously this thread makes #3 a bit more iffy. Perhaps there is a market for some of this stuff. But if there were, there would already be 3pps filling that market. Both Mark and I have said this. Don't believe us, ask more 3pps.

This might come as a shock to you, but we're none of us psychic and people are clearly still feeling out what is and is not viable to sell to 4e fans. You can ignore this as much as you like, but it's pretty obvious. Threads like this can help in that process, but only if they're positive and not weighed down with highly exagerated criticisms and that bit of circular logic you keep tossing around. Just because 3pp hasn't been that successful with 4e yet, doesn't mean it can't be.

Mark reverse patronage project sounds like an interesting experiment. Put your money where your mouth is. You say there is a market. Cause the product to exist and prove us wrong with its bountiful sales.

Actually I have put plenty of money into a product already, one which probably won't sell well, but I'm willing to learn from my mistakes rather than declaring the whole thing hopeless.

 

[jmucchiello]

No, because you're clearly hung up on semantics. You can't rewrite class progression, big deal. Stop thinking inside the box that WOTC operates in.
<snip>
The GSL doesn't stand in the way of that kind of design.

No, it is you who are hung up on YOUR view of what I wanted to do. My plan was for pre-level 1 "levels" as Fighter and as Wizard. That can't be done because to do that I need to strip away some of what makes a fighter a fighter so I can give it back as you gain levels. Within this framework, you could then provide the reader a formula for how to adopt other classes (that presumably don't exist at the time I wrote the book) to the pre-heroic tier. For the umpteenth time, this is not allowed with the GSL.

Quite frankly, I found that disheartening enough to decide not to write for 4e. This was reinforced when my play group decided not to play 4e. Your idea is very good. I'd like to see someone take the concept and run with it. But I'm not the guy to do it.

This might come as a shock to you, but we're none of us psychic and people are clearly still feeling out what is and is not viable to sell to 4e fans. You can ignore this as much as you like, but it's pretty obvious. Threads like this can help in that process, but only if they're positive and not weighed down with highly exagerated criticisms and that bit of circular logic you keep tossing around. Just because 3pp hasn't been that successful with 4e yet, doesn't mean it can't be.

I don't want to be negative. But as Mark pointed out. There were hundreds of 3pps left high and dry when 4e was announced. Most of them disappeared in the GSL fiasco. That's reality. Now, perhaps it will flourish again as you hope. I'm not able to predict that future any better than you are. All I know is business abhors a vacuum. If there is money to be made, businesses will come and make that money.

Continue to pitch ideas for things you think lots of 4e buyers need but no one sells. I'll ensure I'm not being negative by bowing out of the thread. Good luck to you in these endeavors.

 

[Truename]

No, it is you who are hung up on YOUR view of what I wanted to do.

Please stop.

 

[Piratecat]

Time to step back, guys. The moment it starts to get personal, it's a signal to reconsider how you're approaching the thread.

Thanks.

 

[JiffyPopTart]

Not to naysay but I don't believe those are available to use.

Sure they are. You just might have to rename them and leave out a bit of fluff here and there.

Snake people are snake people....they have been around in stories longer than DnD has.

DS