In Monte Cook's d20 CoC on page ten he has Table 1-8 and Table 1-9 which are Base Save options. Table 1-8 is Base Save And Base Attack Bonus: Defense Option. Table 1-9 is Offense Option. The three saving throw progression tables are assigned in any order to Reflex, Willpower, and Fortitude. Offense option has lower saves but higher base attack bonuses. Defense Option has higher saves and lower base attack bonuses. You could put Prossion Save Table into Fortitude, Bases Save Progression Table 3 into Willpower, and Base Save Progression Table 2 into Reflex, as an example.
Hero System Vs. Mutants & Masterminds. Which is the better super-hero game?
- Thread starter Green Knight
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In Monte Cook's d20 CoC on page ten he has Table 1-8 and Table 1-9 which are Base Save options. Table 1-8 is Base Save And Base Attack Bonus: Defense Option. Table 1-9 is Offense Option. The three saving throw progression tables are assigned in any order to Reflex, Willpower, and Fortitude. Offense option has lower saves but higher base attack bonuses. Defense Option has higher saves and lower base attack bonuses. You could put Prossion Save Table into Fortitude, Bases Save Progression Table 3 into Willpower, and Base Save Progression Table 2 into Reflex, as an example.
Aus_Snow
First Post
Um, yeah. Except, why do that for a point-build system. Kind of misses the point, really.
You can, with startling ease, assign your attack, defence and saves to mirror any configuration you'd find in basically any d20 game anyway. Just spend some Power Points, and make it so. You could even match PL to level, if that appeals for some reason (even though the concepts are different, and M&M doesn't in fact have levels.)
Which, come to think of it, seems to be something at least a couple of people are not aware of: it's not a levels-based game. Srsly.
Aus_Snow
First Post
fuindordm
Adventurer
But all this doesn't reduce the active cost of the power, only the number of build points the character needs to spend to acquire it. It's not a cheat--the campaign will have an uppoer limit on the active cost of all powers.
The disadvantages don't bother me much--yes, there are some easy ones that everyone can take without gimping their character, but that's intentional--it encourages people to add flavor to their characters, but the players that don't take them aren't weaker than those that do. Again, because the game is structured to place an upper limit on the active cost of powers, the difference between a 250-pt superhero with disads and a 200-pt superhero without is one of versatility, not raw power. The first might have all sorts of tricks (like an ice hero that can craft objects, walls, prisons, and slides in addition to blasting away), while the second just flies and shoots lasers, but they'll be equally effective in combat and likely equally interesting out of combat (skills being dirt cheap).
The campaign guidelines are an easy aspect of HERO to miss, but very important. In a superheroes game, the GM must sit down and say that
attack powers should be no more than 60 active points, and resistant PD/ED
no higher than 15/15. This prevents anyone from waving a wand and turning their enemy into a slug in one round, and prevents players from building the invulnerable super-brick or glass cannon.
If the upper limits don't change, players will grow broader, not deeper. They learn new tricks for their powers, might pick up defenses they were lacking, and so on.
Once in a while the GM can "level up" the group and increase the upper limit by 10 Points or so, changing the tone of the campaign a little.
Because I don't believe that absolutely everything should be bought with points, In M&M every single save must be bought. I just don't like that option. I prefer to spend my points on powers, skills, feats, and attributes. And even feats is iffy for me personally, but still doable.
ValhallaGH
Explorer
d20 Call of Cthulhu is a level-based game. It has level progression tables for character advancement.
Mutants & Masterminds is not a level-based game.
If you wish to challenge either of these, I will require evidence. (Note that you cannot prove a negative, therefore no proof has been provided. You can prove a positive, therefore proof is required.)
M&M agrees with you. Only things that will have game-mechanic effect require points.
A place to live (not a super-base, just a home with a bed) does not require points, for example. Having a cool costume doesn't require points. Having a particular appearance, accent, mannerism, and so forth, don't require points unless they are supposed to also have a game mechanic effect.
Your character's ability to affect foes and resist their effects does require power points, since it is purely controlled by game mechanics.
You, Quantum, apparently don't like purchasing saving throws. The implication is that you want them to be assigned to you by the game, using a "table" and a declared choice of "defensive" or "offensive". How they would scale is in no way covered (M&M doesn't have levels, so the CoC method won't work), so there's a big whole in your proposal.
The reasons for your feelings are unclear and obscure to those of us following the thread.
Still, take a look at the Mastermind's Manual, chapter 1, pages 18 and 19. That might work for you.
Lord Mhoram
Hero
Yeah.
That is where I stand. I play HERO, and have done some M&M, but I just prefer the style and approach of HERO (5th). Part of it is that I really dislike the damage save as a mechanic, so I can never really get into the whole of M&M.
I think that the M&M stuff has a better setting. I really dig Freedom City.
I haven't played M&M so I don't know how this would actually work out in play. But when I try to learn the system I create a few characters and test the rules out a bit. During my creation I found that when using points to buy everything (and just so you're clear what I mean by everything is ability scores, skills, feats, saves, attack bonuses and powers because the example you used was a bit extreme) is that usually you'll have lower saves and attack bonuses if you want more powers, and less powers if you want more saves and attack bonuses. I suppose it could be evened out but you will not have it evened out for your level. In that both saves, attack bonuses, and powers will not necessarily be even with your level. I feel that character abilities should be even with the character level and using points to buy those will skewer the balance in favor of one or the other.
But then again, and I absolutely stress this point, is that it all depends on what the player wants for their character concept. If they're happy with it then that's fine. But as for myself as a player and not a GM I like having these things evened out with my character level and prefer the automatic level advancement at least for saves and base attack bonuses.
Basically, I prefer the Occam Razor approach to rpgs, in that "entities must not be multiplied beyond necessity". Or tp put it another way, don't unnecessarily complicate things. That's one of the reasons why I can't stand the Hero game system is that they make things really complicated, at least for me.
Also, I don't have the Mastermind's Manual and have never read it. But it sounds like you're insinuating they created a level based save and attack bonus progression for the character's power level.
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