monte cook?
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This mentality needs to die
- Thread starter WarlockLord
- Start date
monte cook?
Windjammer
Adventurer
Let's just say there's a reason why I don't post these things on EnWorld anymore. But kudos for taking my post and just seeing how much signal to noise ratio it would catch here. Impressive!
Majoru Oakheart
Adventurer
I guess I have to be one of the few people to defend Chris Perkins here. He did nothing wrong at all. The rules say it can't target objects unless the DM says so. Chris is following the rules. I don't understand the pure disdain hurled at him for that.
Here's why I don't think it was a bad reason to give: The logical reason starts arguments.
Flash back to my 2e games:
Me: "There's a frozen door covered in ice."
Wizard: "I fireball it, that should melt all the ice off."
Me: "Fireball is extremely hot, but it only lasts for a fraction of a second, it isn't going to melt all the ice off."
Wizard: "What? It does enough damage to kill someone outright and you're saying it doesn't last long enough to melt a door?"
Me: "Yes, that's my ruling."
Wizard: "Well it's stupid. Look, a fireball probably has to burn at what, 1000 degrees Celsius? We could figure it out, but I'm guessing that melts ice in fractions of a second."
Me: "I don't want to start using physics equations to figure this out, let's just say it doesn't last long enough to melt the ice and move on with finding a different solution to the problem."
Wizard: "You aren't letting me be creative with my powers. This game is stupid."
Fast forward back to my 4e games:
Wizard: "I use a fire based power on the frozen door."
Me: "You can't, that power doesn't work on objects, only creatures."
Wizard: "Oh, yeah, you're right...that's what it says. Alright, let's get the Fighter to try to push the door open with a strength check."
This isn't to say that I wouldn't let some powers target the door. But if the point of the challenge is to use skills to solve it, I don't like people bypassing the challenge entirely by using powers.
Powers, to me, are the in combat method of solving problems with people attempting to kill you. Skills and Rituals are the out of combat ways of solving problems. And I like to keep the 2 separate if at all possible. Otherwise we run into the Wizard syndrome from earlier editions again. Why be good at a skill when there is certain to be a power that succeeds automatically when you have a chance of failure? My solution to this is simple. Powers rarely, if ever affect non-combat situations(utilities not withstanding).
Here's why I don't think it was a bad reason to give: The logical reason starts arguments.
Flash back to my 2e games:
Me: "There's a frozen door covered in ice."
Wizard: "I fireball it, that should melt all the ice off."
Me: "Fireball is extremely hot, but it only lasts for a fraction of a second, it isn't going to melt all the ice off."
Wizard: "What? It does enough damage to kill someone outright and you're saying it doesn't last long enough to melt a door?"
Me: "Yes, that's my ruling."
Wizard: "Well it's stupid. Look, a fireball probably has to burn at what, 1000 degrees Celsius? We could figure it out, but I'm guessing that melts ice in fractions of a second."
Me: "I don't want to start using physics equations to figure this out, let's just say it doesn't last long enough to melt the ice and move on with finding a different solution to the problem."
Wizard: "You aren't letting me be creative with my powers. This game is stupid."
Fast forward back to my 4e games:
Wizard: "I use a fire based power on the frozen door."
Me: "You can't, that power doesn't work on objects, only creatures."
Wizard: "Oh, yeah, you're right...that's what it says. Alright, let's get the Fighter to try to push the door open with a strength check."
This isn't to say that I wouldn't let some powers target the door. But if the point of the challenge is to use skills to solve it, I don't like people bypassing the challenge entirely by using powers.
Powers, to me, are the in combat method of solving problems with people attempting to kill you. Skills and Rituals are the out of combat ways of solving problems. And I like to keep the 2 separate if at all possible. Otherwise we run into the Wizard syndrome from earlier editions again. Why be good at a skill when there is certain to be a power that succeeds automatically when you have a chance of failure? My solution to this is simple. Powers rarely, if ever affect non-combat situations(utilities not withstanding).
Nikosandros
Golden Procrastinator
Well, in 2e a fireball can melt soft metal, so it certainly can melt ice... 
Majoru Oakheart
Adventurer
Well, in 2e a fireball can melt soft metal, so it certainly can melt ice...
Depends how thick the ice is. It might melt off a couple of inches. But of course, the fact that this discussion can happen at all, is kind of my point.
nedjer
Adventurer
Many posts ago this was a thread about the style of play not how the rules were applied. Chris did nothing 'wrong' in running the rules as he wanted to, he also did nothing 'wrong' in choosing a particular style of play - he's a professional businessman, not a professional tutor or teacher.
However, if the idea was to put across the sense of anticipation, spontaneous fun and 'edge of the seat' gameplay that would encourage young players to try out tabletop RPGs the plan went out the window when the leather Gandalf chairs arrived.
i can't help wondering if he'd be the recipient of such hostility if he weren't a wotc employee playing 4e...
messy
The Ghost
Explorer
I think that there is an expectation that a WotC employee should be a "better" DM than your average DM - regardless of edition. At least, that is the assumption I hold.
Festivus
First Post
I can't speak to the majority of tables, but certainly not at m table. I always look for a way to say yes. If someone said "Hey, I want to use Darkfire to try to melt the door open"... I would let them give it a try. In the case of darkfire melting the ice, I would say that the door is outlined with blue magical flames but that the ice didn't seem to melt. What bothered me was Chris said it was a minor action to open the doors... so let the person try to open the frikken locked door. They would attempt to open the door, expending the minor action, and THEN I would explain that it was locked.
