This mentality needs to die

[ScottS]

There is a modern approach to RPG design that tries to straddle the divide between rules and "Mother may I", by giving the PCs broadly defined, open-ended capabilities and by giving the GM sound rules advice on how to set difficulties for conflict resolution that will (i) fit well with the PCs' capabilties and (ii) produce an outcome that is reasonably satisfying for the players at the table, both in gameplay and narrative terms.

Probably the poster-child for this sort of design is HeroQuest. But D&D 4e also has a go at it, via the rules on p 42 of the DMG and the (not ideally implemented, but nevertheless there) Skill Challenge mechanics.

I'm not sure whether you're correct about this, because I don't know many examples of the type of "modernity" you're talking about. (I'm vaguely familiar with the R. Laws version of Runequest you mention, particularly the "characters get to loosely define their own special competencies at the start of the game, then negotiate with the GM how and when they get to use those improved skills during gameplay" thing, but I never saw the entire core rules, and I wasn't aware that there wasn't some sort of larger, more traditionally defined skill system that that mechanic worked into.)

My own (perhaps ill-informed) take on it is that they changed skills the way they did because they didn't want to deal with skill systems any more (or they felt that the customers didn't), not out of some urge to "modernize". See Heinsoo's interview describing fantasy simulation as "tedious", Mearls talking about making everything in the game a simple stat check, etc. I also find it strange that the "modernization" process didn't incorporate more straightforward post-D&D innovations, such as folding the combat and magic systems directly into the skill system (e.g. "cast-a-spell" and "swing-a-sword" skill checks instead of related-but-not-really-the-same "to-hit" rolls), and any real form of "degree of success" with skill checks (e.g. being able to "crit" with skills, or having the amount of damage you do in combat be directly linked to your hit roll). Sacred ground beef they didn't want to grill, I guess?

edit: ninja'd by the mods if we're actually shutting the whole thread down, my apologies if that's the case

 

[nedjer]

If a moderator asks you to drop a discussion, you need to drop it. - Thanks. Plane Sailing

missed your post. Wandered off before posting and didn't refresh when I came back. Message received

 

[Plane Sailing]

missed your post. Wandered off before posting and didn't refresh when I came back. Message received

OK, I understand. Thanks for explaining.

Cheers

 

[Lanefan]

And that was the long held scientific view. Add enough procedures until you get incredibly complex routines that solve really complex problems. Trouble was this didn't cover how consciousness operates. A procedural approach, i.e. a long chain gang, would be too slow, too inflexible and too uncoordinated to result in consciousness and solve compelx problems.

As scanners got better this was largely confirmed, as brains lit up like Christmas trees when handling complex tasks, (especially at speed).

Basically, you're kind of underestimating yourself. You can play on autopilot and enjoy it but you're also easily capable of exploiting all that "diversity" and playing roleplaying games in a way that is more 'intense'.

You're assuming that I play in order to exercise my brain.

Quite often, I play with the specific intention of turning my brain *off*. It's been on all week! Same goes for when I'm DMing - if I've prepared it right, the game will pretty much run itself and thus I can mostly auto-pilot that too. (my current problem is the DM whose game I currently play in expects us to think, and for some reason some of the other players seem to think I'll do much of said thinking; but this doesn't work so well after I've knocked back a couple of beers and just want to get on with the killin' and lootin'...)

Lan-"unless playing a Cleric, Wisdom is always my dump stat"-efan

 

[Hussar]

Lanefan - No cookie for you. You're doing it all wrong. Go back to gaming school and learn to do it right!

 

[ExploderWizard]

You're assuming that I play in order to exercise my brain.

Lanefan - No cookie for you. You're doing it all wrong. Go back to gaming school and learn to do it right!

This is funny stuff.

The DM/Player expectations can often differ so much that the two sides of the screen are, in effect, playing two separate games.

Lanefan , you mentioned that your DM expects the players to think (the horror!). What do you think he/she means by that? Is this a game heavy with puzzles and mysteries that the players need to work out on thier own? Also, when you are the DM do you enjoy the game more,less, or the same when your players are actively thinking about the game world & events therein during play?

I have been thinking a lot lately about the DM's role in the group and what makes the experience satisfying and fun.

I understand that sometimes just switching off the brain for some good old hack n slash is exactly what is desired from the player perspective. I am more curious to find out what makes such games attractive to DMs.

 

[Gimby]

I understand that sometimes just switching off the brain for some good old hack n slash is exactly what is desired from the player perspective. I am more curious to find out what makes such games attractive to DMs.

From my perspective, its partly about the simple enjoyment that players get from a dose of the old ultraviolence and partly about the satisfaction of the craft of designing a fun hack'n'slash adventure.

Think about the old shooter DOOM for example. Gameplay is very simple - very limited puzzles and the core of gameplay is walking from one end of the map to the other murdering everything you come across. However, map creation was relatively easily accessable to the user. The quality of these user created maps varied wildly and there was a decent amount of kudos associated with creating a really fun one. To do so, you need to pay in mind pacing of monsters, theme of surroundings, pacing of weapon/ammo drops and implementation of clever gimmicks.

Playing a simple hack and slash isn't very demanding on the player, but creating a *good* hack and slash adventure can be pretty demanding on the DM and there is a certain amount of intellectual satisfaction in being able to meet that demand.

 

[ExploderWizard]

Playing a simple hack and slash isn't very demanding on the player, but creating a *good* hack and slash adventure can be pretty demanding on the DM and there is a certain amount of intellectual satisfaction in being able to meet that demand.

Thanks for sharing. Do you find this sort of satisfaction sustainable over the course of a campaign?

 

[Gimby]

Thanks for sharing. Do you find this sort of satisfaction sustainable over the course of a campaign?

As with all things, depends on your campaign. No experience, but I think it's doubtful that its sustainable over a 20 year mega-campaign in the same way other styles may be

That said, over the course of a strongly episodic relatively short campaign (say, 20 sessions or so)? Sure. Personally, its somewhat reliant on techniques that may not be suited for other campaign styles - a certain amount of railroading to allow for strong set-pieces can be helpful, for example, but given the players have the stated aim of going from point A to point B murdering everything between, that's less of an issue than it would be in a more exploration focussed game.

 

[Mark Chance]

From my perspective, its partly about the simple enjoyment that players get from a dose of the old ultraviolence and partly about the satisfaction of the craft of designing a fun hack'n'slash adventure.

I second this. I enjoy my players' reactions to the challenge, whether that is a puzzle or yet another wave of screaming zombies. We play d20 D&D (more or less). The rules tend to emphasize combat and reward builds that match that emphasis. Consequently, it's nice to give the players a chance to cut loose and revel in the carnage.

Do you find this sort of satisfaction sustainable over the course of a campaign?

In small doses, sure. The trick is setting things up so that the players will enjoy crushing their enemies, seeing them driven before them, and hearing the lamentations of their women when that time comes.