Optional rule: The DEATHBLOW!

[Rachel]

@Amaroq

Okay I want to say that I really like your emphasis on storytelling. But let me clarify something, please:

The one scoring the "Deathblow" is *not* frumbling their way to a victory, nor is the one taking the Deathblow. To think that is the intent is to greatly misconstrue it. A Deathblow represents and *amazing* attack with all sorts of storytelling potential. One might say an enemy was "destined to be felled". You might say the attacker performed "an amazing manuever/strike that even they were surprised at their own skill". You could even say that "lady luck" had turned her back on one who fell to a Deathblow.

There is nothing cheap about this.

Also, your system is fine but you say "quickness and ease" as if these are bad things. I don't see too many people looking to make the system *more* complex.

Thanks for the comments.

 

[eriktheguy]

Headshot!

 

[Amaroq]

Rachel, I thought I was clear about that - the quoted section I had grabbed and cut-and-pasted from our own house rules document, which included results on both double-20 and double-1.

The bit about "fumbling to victory" was pure directive for our DM's about making sure to limit the "1" followed by a "1" so that it didn't diminish the players' feeling of triumph when they win a battle; I've seen fumble systems that did actually cause that.

Still, I think your "Deathblow" does have potentially the same problem.

Imagine a DM has put all of the effort into creating a recurring villain through levels 5-9, and has set up a monumental battle at the end of level 10 with said BBEG ... and it just so happens that the first PC to roll an attack double-20's.

Session over?

Sure, it may feel "awesome" for the character who dealt the blow, but does it cheapen the victory for the other players?

Likewise, I'd be pretty frustrated if my Level 10 fighter, who habitually wades into the center of the fray, and whose character design is around forcing people to attack me, were then penalized unduly:

As I'm forcing people to attack me, monsters are going to roll to hit me more often than I roll to hit monsters .. which means I'm going to get felled like this more often than I get the "awesomeness" of dealing out the Deathblow.

Seriously - its a 1-in-400 shot. I figure I get out in the middle of 10 fights per level .. call it six rounds per average fight .. maybe three people swinging at me per round .. So I'm expecting around 180 attacks against me per level. I'm going to get dropped like this approximately every other level, even if I'm at full hit points and "doing everything right"?

When the result is "The DM tells a story", you get wildly varying effects. We certainly do get the occasional "A strike so awesome that it surprises even the attacker" .. but we also have the flexibility to ensure that we aren't killing a player or a major villain in a single shot.

 

[Fanaelialae]

As Amaroq points out, the Deathblow mechanic does weaken a defender's capacity to perform his job. Defenders get extra hp in order to be able to effectively perform their duty (protecting the rest of the party) but Deathblow bypasses this advantage entirely.

Mechanics that introduce more randomness do, as mentioned, favor the DM rather than the players. This is because monsters are expendable (their life expectancy is usually a single battle) whereas PCs aren't (PC death is generally an uncommon occurrence).

Admittedly, deathblow may function a bit better in 4e as, if the PCs get lucky, they could inflict a deathblow on a solo or elite (effectively killing 2-5 creatures worth of hp with a single blow). I'm uncertain how well that would balance out with the vulnerability it presents to defenders, and would likely depend on how often you utilized solos/elites.

An alternative that you might consider (which my group used in 3e) would be to inflict double (crit) damage on a double 20. It's still rather nasty, but doesn't ignore the defender/solo/elite hp advantage.

 

[eriktheguy]

The specifics of healing and dieing in 4e make 'deathblows' less of an issue than they were in earlier editions. Nonetheless I can agree with the last two posters that there are some potential problems.
Instant kill powers were (almost completely) removed in this edition, to the delight of some and the fury of others. Deathblow is one of these sorts of powers.
It is not balanced, because it adds more random to a fight and ignores HP. Whether it is suited to your campaign is really a personal decision. I don't know that most defenders suffer 180 attacks per level (that sounds a little high to me), but I don't think that defenders going down once every two levels is that bad.
If your players love the thrill of danger and the unknown, go for it. If they aren't the sort of group that likes being hit by this, you're going to find out and probably have to reverse this house-rule.

For DMs that do not like the idea of a solo/recurring villain going down in 1 hit, here is an alternative: a deathblow against a solo deals 1/4 of their maximum HP in bonus damage.

On the other hand, experience as a DM tells me that recurring villains will often die earlier than I planned, and that having them escape when the players beat them fair and square will only inspire hostility at the table. One DM I knew had a villain somehow teleport away when the players were about to kill him, and the players did not enjoy that session.

 

[Rachel]

I just want to thank everyone for their comments. The last 3 posts were very very helpful!

Agree about the Elites/Solos. That could pose a problem b/c they have so many hp that could be all but negated with enough luck. Then again I did post an entire thread dedicated to "wth why are those orc's hp totals so high?!". LOL
As far as if the PCs did whack your BB (big baddie) too fast: welcome to table-top RPGs! Players are constantly throwing a monkeywrench into the DM's plans, accidentally and sometimes, with conspicuous intent. No big deal. Adapt on-the-fly, same as you did every other time (just not with a random, "he can't do that!" teleportation as eriktheguy metnioned).

Also, the point about defenders was *dead-on*. I mean, wow, I am ashamed to admit I didn't consider that. Of course the defender is trying to soak up as many hits as possible. Getting hit more = more chances to succumb to a Deathblow.

Mmmm, how can I rectify this and keep the spirit of the rule? (double crit damage to me is a bit of a cop-out and I dont care for that idea) Anyone?

Also, I still dont like having "roles" in D&D...if I wanted to play WoW I would go play WoW).

 

[Amaroq]

You're welcome - an example of the community at its best, I hope, to counter some of your other experiences?

No shame needed re: the defender. Its actually a problem with the RAW, too.

Basically, dishing out a critical hit is fun, but taking a critical hit isn't. Sure, the game needs to be balanced, so you want both monsters and PC's to have crits.

But, the defender has the same problem by RAW, its just not as magnified:

My fighter winds up out front, facing the melee attackers, which more often than not attack AC .. so I've got a bunch of "buffs" to AC, whether magical armor, powers from weapons, feats, paragon path buffs, etc. So, it literally gets to a point where a lot of monsters hit me on, say, an 18+. Now, I'm still trying to draw as many attacks as possible, and I'm only getting hit, what, 15% of the time? ... But when I do get hit, 33% of the time its a critical.

The math is right, and since the RAW crit doesn't do anything more than reduce hit points, which I have a lot of .. its not too overbalancing ..

.. but it misses "fun" by a wide margin, because it basically feels like I'm either getting missed or getting crit'ted.

. . .

That's how we wound up on our crit system, which I suppose I ought to get around to posting in full - but that logic is the origin for the "tell a story" idea, with the severity of the "story" effect depending on the DM's evaluation of the situation and the opponent.

 

[Rachel]

You're welcome - an example of the community at its best, I hope, to counter some of your other experiences?

Oh don't worry, they have mostly been good and I'm holding my own.

No shame needed re: the defender. Its actually a problem with the RAW, too.

Yay! I'm off the hook. Woot!

 

[Flipguarder]

I have a much larger problem with wights who steal healing surges. Most defenders have a few ways to not go unconscious when they reach 0 hp. And unless your party is leaderless, this won't be too much of an issue. Think its one attack roll out of 400. And its most likely to occur when the most enemies are on the field. Logic connotes that most of your allies would be able to take actions and hopefully save you

Something that could be good too is something like a staggering blow. Same mechanics but if you spend a healing surge after taking a staggering blow you regain hp up to your bloodied.

 

[eriktheguy]

Similar to something Flip just said, you could always allow PCs to spend a healing surge when they are reduced to 0 by a deathblow (assuming that the damage alone was not enough to reduce them to 0). Or you could just allow defenders to do this (since deathblows are a greater disadvantage for defenders).