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House rules for Improved Game Balance.

eamon

Explorer
  1. All Expertise, the Robust Defenses feat, and all Epic X defense feats are banned. Instead, PC's get a free +1 boost to attacks and non-AC defenses at levels 5,15 and 25. Non-AC defenses get an additional +1 bonus at level 1.
  2. At levels 4,8,14,18,24,28 players raise all ability scores by 1 rather than choosing from just 2.
  3. Temporary hit points last at most 5 minutes.
  4. Consider using Inherent bonuses and/or randomized loot.
  5. Tweak here: Monsters have 1 fewer HP per level but are considered 1 level lower than usual.
The aim is to have NAD's that don't start off ridiculously low and then decay further. The ability score fix should avoid skill bonus divergence, and simultaneously limit the weakest-NAD problem a bit, while finally not mandating weird hacks (lots of feats for heavy armor, usually) to maintain AC or whatnot for MAD builds such as bear shamans and Con-based warlocks.

Points 1&5 could be implemented entirely behind the DM screen (though I believe it's easier to get the players to do point 1 for you); point 2 is easily done in the character builder, and the rest is just how you run the game at the table; in short, this should be implementable without clashing too much with the character builder or other published material.

Point 2 possibly enables some new charop build, but I did spend some time looking; and it's not unbalancing AFAIK. In particular, since it improves the low end scores more than the high end scores it's typically safe.

Thoughts, ideas, criticisms?
 
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  1. All Expertise, the Robust Defenses feat, and all Epic X defense feats are banned. Instead, PC's get a free +1 boost to attacks and non-AC defenses at levels 5,15 and 25. Non-AC defenses get an additional +1 bonus at level 1.

  1. Except for the bonus to NADs at level 1, this is a fairly common house rule. My game uses the exact same adjustment.

    [*]At levels 4,8,14,18,24,28 players raise all ability scores by 1 rather than choosing from just 2.
    It is more common to grant a raise to three ability scores at the 4/8 levels (instead of the default two) in the house rules I've seen, including my own. I don't think yours will unbalance things necessarily, but it does reduce the specialness of hitting 11 and 21 a little, and reduces the characters' weaknesses, which may or may not matter in your game. Which stats to boost is also a tough choice for people when leveling up, and often determines the direction they want to take that character. I prefer to leave at at "boost 3 stats at the 4/8 levels".

    [*]Temporary hit points last at most 5 minutes.
    No one in my current game does much with temporary HP, but I thought they were like any encounter power type effect - by default it wears off in 5 minutes. I could be mistaken, but it certainly makes sense to run it that way.
    [*]When you stand up from prone in a square also occupied by an ally, you provoke an OA.
    I didn't think you could stand up from prone in a square occupied by an ally, but I must admit I haven't read the rules recently, and I am too lazy to go find it right now. I'll look it up a bit later. :D
    [*]Consider using Inherent bonuses and/or randomized loot.
    Inherent bonuses are a great solution to a game where you want magic items to be more about the flavor and less about mechanics. It might change the feel of the game, but it would work just fine and solve a lot of issues in balancing out treasure.
    [*]Tweak here: Monsters have 1 few HP per level but are considered 1 level lower than usual.
    I'm not sure reducing the monsters HP by 1/level is really enough to make a difference. I think the majority of people who reduce monster HP do so by some percentage. 3/4 hp is pretty common, but I've also seen recommendations from 50% up to 90%. How much likely depends on the group - mine hits pretty hard, but a group with fewer strikers is going to need more of a hand in this area to reduce grind.
The aim is to have NAD's that don't start of ridiculous and then decay. The ability score fix should avoid skill bonus divergence, and simultaneously limit the weakest-NAD problem a bit, while finally not mandating weird hacks to maintain AC or whatnot for MAD builds such as bear shamans and Con-based warlocks.
Currently at the high levels of the game, your weakest NAD is going to be *really* weak without adjustment. I don't think they start off as being all that weak, so I don't see the need for the initial starting +1. Boosting 3 stats lets you keep having bonuses to all three NADs if you place them that way. If you want to boost Wisdom and Charisma but not Strength or Con, well, you'll have a low Fort. That's your choice.

As for skill bonuses, they don't diverge at high levels all that much due to the half level bonus. Sure, the people boosting the relevant stat will pull away from those who aren't, but that makes some sense, doesn't it? It will never approach the crazy divergences possible in 3E. I don't see the need to raise all the abilities at every level you get a stat boost. It feels like too much, and that it will flatten out the differences between characters - or rather not allow those who boost stats to stand out from their buddies who didn't.

Overall your rules seem fine, and similar to what many others have done, with the few differences I pointed out. It should work, and I don't think the stat thing will necessarily create any totally out of balance builds. Your entire group will be more powerful, but that's okay.
 

It is more common to grant a raise to three ability scores at the 4/8 levels (instead of the default two) in the house rules I've seen, including my own. I don't think yours will unbalance things necessarily, but it does reduce the specialness of hitting 11 and 21 a little, and reduces the characters' weaknesses, which may or may not matter in your game. Which stats to boost is also a tough choice for people when leveling up, and often determines the direction they want to take that character. I prefer to leave at at "boost 3 stats at the 4/8 levels".
Yeah, I thought about that too. However, boosting 3 stats won't solve the problem of builds that have two aligned primary/secondary stats - and these aren't uncommon: wand-wizards, Str-Con fighters, Cha-Wis paladins, prescient Bards, etc.

When it comes to weaknesses - raising all the stats doesn't remove a PC's weaknesses - it just avoids making them ever more acute. Beyond defenses, in particular skills and initiative diverge as levels rise, which is bad for balance (we get the 3e effect of having 1 or 2 characters auto-succeed at a check and the others hopelessly fail). Since the game still rewards high primary stats, there's no question that these weaknesses will be noticable - it's just that with this update, skill training might actually be able to mitigate that somewhat.

I'm pretty sure that diverging stat bonuses as levels rise are a bad idea - and if you're going to fix it a little (and expose yourself to the risk that there's an unbalancing combo somewhere) you might as well go whole hog.


No one in my current game does much with temporary HP, but I thought they were like any encounter power type effect - by default it wears off in 5 minutes. I could be mistaken, but it certainly makes sense to run it that way.
Yeah, Unfortunately, they last until the next short rest. Since I neither want people running around with masses of thp at the start of each combat nor wish to force short rests (if a char doesn't want to rest, that his business), I don't think these things should that long.


I didn't think you could stand up from prone in a square occupied by an ally, but I must admit I haven't read the rules recently, and I am too lazy to go find it right now. I'll look it up a bit later. :D
Currently, if you stand up from prone while an ally stand on you, you get a free shift - which doesn't particularly make sense to me.

I'm not sure reducing the monsters HP by 1/level is really enough to make a difference. I think the majority of people who reduce monster HP do so by some percentage. 3/4 hp is pretty common[...]
Monsters gain 6-10 hp per level, so this represents a 10-17% reduction (less at low levels) Relatively, brutes get the best deal, which is fine by me. I chose to not use a % reduction both because I actually kind of like slightly exagerating the differences between monsters, and because it's easy to calculate. Effectively, it's very similar to a percentage reduction but hopefully easier to calculate.

However, you may be right that a larger reduction is warranted, a 2 points per level reduction is probably just as good (and twice that for elites, and 4 times that for solo's). I'm leery of dropping 20-25% of the hit points simply because I like keeping my rules super-simple and their computations doable at a glance.

Currently at the high levels of the game, your weakest NAD is going to be *really* weak without adjustment. I don't think they start off as being all that weak, so I don't see the need for the initial starting +1. Boosting 3 stats lets you keep having bonuses to all three NADs if you place them that way. If you want to boost Wisdom and Charisma but not Strength or Con, well, you'll have a low Fort. That's your choice.
Monster attack bonuses vs. NAD's are about 1.5 points lower than those vs. AC. (in the MM) I accept that NAD attack might be a little nastier than AC attacks, but certainly player NAD's should be no more than 3 worse than AC on average.

Right now a paladin's NAD's start more than 5 points lower than AC on average. For a more generic character, assume a total of +8 to NADs from stats, +2 from class, and +1 from a light shield, divided over three NADs: that's an average NAD of 13.7. A typical AC would be hide+light shield+4, say, for 18 - or more than 4 lower. Frankly, I think a +1 bonus to nads at first level is on the low end of reasonable, but to avoid changing balance too much, I thought I'd stay conservative. The problem's a little worse than it seems too; although many characters will pick up a few extra AC boosters (a defensive weapon, a better shield, a staff of defense, etc.) those kind of small boosts are harder to get for NADs.

As for skill bonuses, they don't diverge at high levels all that much due to the half level bonus. Sure, the people boosting the relevant stat will pull away from those who aren't, but that makes some sense, doesn't it?
Not really - if people boost all stats, the divergence will be less. I don't have a problem with PC's being good in a skill, but right now, it's easy to reach the point where some PC's will always manage a certain skill check and others never. Skills diverge just as badly as NAD's do, and in practice, they tend to diverge more due to the huge effect of skill training. People often play to their strengths, so even at first level, it's not common to have a difference of +10 or more at a given skill within the party. Once you add a few racial bonuses, magic items, tools, armor penalties and whatnot, even without ability modifiers diverging, that's quite likely to get dangerously close to +20: that's not good in my book.

It will never approach the crazy divergences possible in 3E. I don't see the need to raise all the abilities at every level you get a stat boost. It feels like too much, and that it will flatten out the differences between characters - or rather not allow those who boost stats to stand out from their buddies who didn't.
I can see how raising all stats seems like a lot at first sight. It does, doesn't it? But really, the extra stats you're raising are the weakest, least interesting stats. Skills won't flatten out; they're already extremely different at level 1, and as people collect items + powers that play to their strengths, they'll still diverge - but now they'll diverge because of a real investment, not because of a non-choice (I mean, who's going to invest one of their two stat boosts in a non-primary stat?).

Another reason to raise all the stats is to prevent players from being, well, stupid. I've seen players several times choose to "round off" an uneven stat to a round stat or simply to pick some non-primary/secondary stat because they haven't thought it through. It takes quite a bit of effort to explain that if they're doing that, they're effectively playing at less than 22 point buy (it's cheaper to allocate non-primary/secondary stats at character creation), so that it's almost certainly unwise. These are the players that simply create a PC because it sounds fun, and I don't want to punish them because they didn't preplan their entire PC across 30 levels.

Because monsters are considered one level lower than usual, I expect PC's with these rules will actually be pretty much the same strength (relative to the monsters) as usual. Monsters gain a level but lose HP (effectively gaining +1 att/defenses and a bit cooler powers+damage), whereas pc's gain several feats over the course of their career (expertise +epic defense stuff) and roughly +1 to NADs.
 
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Currently, if you stand up from prone while an ally stand on you, you get a free shift - which doesn't particularly make sense to me.

Basically the idea is that you shouldn't be screwed just because someone stepped into your square while you were prone.

In terms of how it plays out: imagine that the ally in your square helps you up.
 

I'm especially interested in what people think of the skill+NAD divergence fix whereby

  • +1 to NADs at levels 1,5,15,25
  • +1 to all abilities rather than just two at levels 4,8,14,18,24,28
  • banning math-fix defense feats.
This should hopefully avoid skills drifting too far apart and NADs from being terrible at level one and ridiculously terrible later on.

So, assuming you think skill divergence and NAD decay are a problem, is there a balance reason not to do this?
 

Basically the idea is that you shouldn't be screwed just because someone stepped into your square while you were prone.

In terms of how it plays out: imagine that the ally in your square helps you up.

Or, as a very natural action, you would of course move your body as to arise in a place very close to the person above you (standing in your square), since you obviously can't arise through their body.
 

Or, as a very natural action, you would of course move your body as to arise in a place very close to the person above you (standing in your square), since you obviously can't arise through their body.

You make a point; so I scrapped that idea. The reason I initially included it was that I find it unreasonable that you should be unable to move while standing up normally, but when someone's standing in your square (possibly even an enemy), you suddenly gain the ability to make a free shift. It's slightly ridiculous, and not particularly necessary, IMHO - if you want to stand up, tell an ally not to stand on top of you; and if an enemy is on top of you, tough luck (an unlikely occurrence). On the other hand, the house rule would almost never come up, so it's a poor house rule even if the normal rules aren't ideal.
 

I don't understand the reasoning for number two. I see no point in doing this beyond giving away bonuses for the sake of giving away bonuses. Why give away the farm when the crops are doing fine?
 

I don't understand the reasoning for number two. I see no point in doing this beyond giving away bonuses for the sake of giving away bonuses. Why give away the farm when the crops are doing fine?

Abstractly: because diverging bonuses unbalance the game.

In practice, you see this with defense scores of all PC's (the weakest NAD scales terribly). It's also noticeable with skills, initiative, and to some extent, healing surges. Some racial attacks and other minor details are similarly affected. I don't see a good alternative fix: others have suggested just raising 3 scores, but that doesn't really work well: it only fixes defenses (not skills + init), and it only works for classes that don't have aligned primary/secondary stats. Worse; it exposes the same weaknesses (namely a way to get around prerequisites).

So the question arrises how to boost weak defenses and skills in such a way that the boost isn't abusable; you shouldn't be able to take the benefit and redirect it to a strong score. Feats are a poor choice; for example, a PC might choose to concentrate on magic items to negate a bunch of Will-related effects but boost the strongest defense instead.

Skill divergence makes skill challenges harder to run; with the vast span of skill bonuses, you're quite likely to have a DC that's impossible for some or or an auto-success for others.

Defense divergence makes combat encounters harder to plan. Basically, any attack vs. almost any NAD at the moment has to be fairly trivial or rather rare - otherwise it's a recipe for a TPK. That, however, is not fun, and also not balanced (in the sense that encounters with similar XP budgets with attacks vs. NADs are generally stronger than those with attacks vs. AC). As far as I can tell, NAD's should generally be 2-3 points lower than AC - right now, the difference is generally twice that, on average - if not at first level, then soon thereafter.

On alternative would be to remove ability score scaling entirely - that's just as good - but that's more problematic in that it requires even more fixes for attacks & damage, and it fundamentally changes rider effects which typically depend on the secondary stat - which in turn completely changes how well some classes+builds work. So, a less drastic rule is the one I'm proposing: raise all ability scores identically. For some, that may mean you get extra flexibility (an extra multiclass, or a power with a different secondary score) - but that's a smaller impact than completely changing secondary score scaling.
 


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