Poker Hands & d20 System Effects

[Mark Chance]

Hello!

I just can't the idea out of my head about merging d20 System fantasy tropes with the Wild West. Of course, any good Wild West game has to use poker cards during play, so I'm trying to figure out a simple system to integrate poker hands for use during the game.

I envision the cards being a sort of Action Point system with higher ranked hands have better effects than lower ranked hands.

Here's what I've cobbled together so far:

At start of combat:

1. Deal 5 cards.
2. Roll 1d20 for Initiative.
3. Roll 1d20 for Attack Rolls, Skill Checks, and Saving Throws.
4. With any roll, you may play cards from your hand, one play per die roll:

* High Card = +2 or -2
* One Pair = +5 or -5
* Two Pair = +10 or -10

5. Other hands have special effects:

* Three of a Kind = ?
* Straight = ?
* Flush = ?
* Full House = ?
* Four of a Kind = ?
* Straight Flush = ?​

After getting this far, I realized I might be trying to re-invent the wheel, so I figured I'd pop over to get some feedback.

So: Help?

 

[Jeff Wilder]

All I can say is just be aware of the ODDS of making a poker hand in five cards. (The absolute odds, not just the relative odds.) You might be very surprised, for example, just how rarely you'll get a lowly two-pair (or higher) in only five cards. (The designers of the first edition Deadlands game were very obviously almost completely ignorant of these odds.)

Whether or not you want the power of the effect to scale with the likelihood of the hand, and how, will then be easier to determine. (For example, you almost certainly don't want the effects of a pat flush to be 200 times as powerful as a single pair, but if you want the distinction to be meaningful and memorable, it needs to be significant.)

It occurs to me that an interesting variant on your idea may be to deal a seven-card stud hand. Not only would the odds of getting a meaningful poker hand improve substantially, but you could do it over a series of rounds, like this:

Before combat: Two cards down, one up.
First round: Fourth card.
Second round: Fifth card.
Third round: Sixth card.
Fourth round: Seventh card (down).

Hands aren't formed (and can't be "spent") until the fourth round.

This could have some really interesting implications during the course of a combat, depending upon the abilities you give for hands and (especially) whether you deal a hand for each NPC or group of NPCs. How PCs behave, and the NPCs, will depend wuite a bit of what the enemies have showing, and that behavior can then be worked into the narrative. If a Black Hat has three aces showing, well, he's pretty clearly got cover up on a balcony overlooking the entire street.

 

[Mark Chance]

All I can say is just be aware of the ODDS of making a poker hand in five cards.

Right on that. I'm thinking there's got to be some sort of draw mechanic or some such thing.

Whether or not you want the power of the effect to scale with the likelihood of the hand, and how, will then be easier to determine. (For example, you almost certainly don't want the effects of a pat flush to be 200 times as powerful as a single pair, but if you want the distinction to be meaningful and memorable, it needs to be significant.)

Exactly. Scaling effects based on the actual odds of a single draw would be absurd, at least in the d20 System.

It occurs to me that an interesting variant on your idea may be to deal a seven-card stud hand.

I thought of that. Good idea! But I'm not too sure how well this would work:

Before combat: Two cards down, one up.
First round: Fourth card.
Second round: Fifth card.
Third round: Sixth card.
Fourth round: Seventh card (down).

Hands aren't formed (and can't be "spent" until the fourth round.

Too many d20 System combats don't last that long.

This could have some really interesting implications during the course of a combat, depending upon the abilities you give for hands and (especially) whether you deal a hand for each NPC or group of NPCs.

I'd prefer to avoid NPCs using the cards. As a DM, I've got enough to keep track of.

 

[Achan hiArusa]

I just used numerical values, inspired from the SAGA system (not Star Wars) and Deadlands. You draw two cards and added their values together. Jokers were 0.5, Jacks were 4, Queens were 5, and Kings were 6.

The trump suites were:

Strength, Constitution: Clubs
Dexterity: Spades
Intelligence: Diamonds
Wisdom, Charisma: Hearts

Each trump allowed you to add another card to the two. Hand size was 2 + 1/3 levels. The Red Joker meant you partially succeeded or critically failed, the Black meant you critically succeeded.

 

[Jeff Wilder]

Right on that. I'm thinking there's got to be some sort of draw mechanic or some such thing.

You could have a draw mechanic based on player (mis-) fortune. Something like, "If you miss on an attack, draw a card."

Too many d20 System combats don't last that long.

Fair enough. We never experienced that in our games. Even at high level, our combats would go eight or ten rounds.

I'd prefer to avoid NPCs using the cards. As a DM, I've got enough to keep track of.

That's a good point. It's a shame, though, because if it were practically feasible, it would add a lot to a system like this for it to be available to NPCs.

 

[Umbran]

(The designers of the first edition Deadlands game were very obviously almost completely ignorant of these odds.)

As a GM starting up a Deadlands game, I'm not at all sure that's true. One of the keys to the most relevant mechanic is a roll to increase your hand size, and another mechanic that allows you to better your die rolls when you want.

I don't think the Deadlands writers had any intention of having really good hands show up frequently without significant "push" to make it so.

 

[Mark Chance]

You could have a draw mechanic based on player (mis-) fortune. Something like, "If you miss on an attack, draw a card."

That could work. Apply the same idea to failed saves, perhaps.

Fair enough. We never experienced that in our games. Even at high level, our combats would go eight or ten rounds.

Of course, if players kept their cards in between combats, the shorter fights wouldn't necessarily be an issue. This could let players build better hands over more than one encounter.

 

[Jeff Wilder]

I don't think the Deadlands writers had any intention of having really good hands show up frequently without significant "push" to make it so.

Maybe so. The problem is, you need decent hands just to cast the spells at any effective level. I crunched the math, way back when, and tried it in practice several times. It really doesn't work. (They've changed it from first edition, right?)

 

[Umbran]

Maybe so. The problem is, you need decent hands just to cast the spells at any effective level. I crunched the math, way back when, and tried it in practice several times. It really doesn't work. (They've changed it from first edition, right?)

Somewhat.

I the first edition, each huckster spell was a separate skill that you'd roll to increase your hand size, and you bought each skill separately. This was a huge bounty point suck, if you wanted to be any good at spells.

I don't know the d20 and Savage World versions, but in the revised classic version, the huckster has a single skill that applies to all spells, and extra spells have a single one-time cost to buy. So, it is far easier to concentrate on the die roll that'll increase the hand size.

The core rules list 16 spells. 3 spells require 2 pair or better to function. Two spells call for a pair of jacks or better. The rest requires one pair or ace-high. So, most spells do something useful on a single pair. They just do more (usually dramatically more) on better hands.

 

[I'm A Banana]

I really like the "slow build" idea from Jeff Wilder, and the "miss and draw" idea is keen.

Taking a page from the deadlands spells, perhaps you could have different effects depending on the class/race/archetype/whatever of the character who did it. Maybe have each player customize their own suite of effects. Cash in the cards early (a pair) for a minor thing, or keep building them until you have a really solid hand.

You could also link them to the adventure rather than the combat: certain options could give you another draw, as you get closer and closer to the goal. If it's a dungeon, maybe certain rooms have "cards" in them.

I'm liking these ideas!