Can somebody explain the bias against game balance?

[Dannyalcatraz]

If this wasn't just blind rhetoric, and you actually had something to express here, perhaps could you find a better word for it?)

Its not blind rhetoric- let's put this back in the context of ProfessorCirno's comment,

Honestly, I think the key is to simply accept that statistics are no longer meant to be flat assumptions of an adventurer's actual, well, statistics. They, like so many other things, are just abstracted now.

To which I responded that if the stats are so abstracted that they don't describe the PCs physical and mental attributes relative to other beings in the game, then you might as well not have them.

 

[Nifft]

Its not blind rhetoric- let's put this back in the context of ProfessorCirno's comment,

Still not seeing where you get ability scores being anything other than the least unique part of any PC.

To which I responded that if the stats are so abstracted that they don't describe the PCs physical and mental attributes relative to other beings in the game, then you might as well not have them.

They still do. They simply are no longer the only thing which does so. You need to combine them with other things -- as listed previously -- to get the whole picture.

This is not some new thing, either. Stats alone have never been enough to fully specify every PC's physical and mental capabilities.

Cheers, -- N

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Still not seeing where you get ability scores being anything other than the least unique part of any PC.

I'm not asserting that stats are anything other than the least unique part of a PC. However, they should still tell you something unique about the PC and his place in the world.

For example, an extraordinarily high stat is perforce going to set you apart from most other beings. An NPC may be considered quite notable if his Str was, say...22, even if he were nothing but a plowboy and a simpleton. Despite his non-violent nature and humble life, he might nonetheless be a hit at the "County Faire" or the "Harvest Festival" for his feats of strength.

They still do. They simply are no longer the only thing which does so. You need to combine them with other things -- as listed previously -- to get the whole picture.

This is not some new thing, either. Stats alone have never been enough to fully specify every PC's physical and mental capabilities.

Those are 2 mutually contradictory paragraphs: either there was some point at which they were the only thing are there was not.

FWIW, I'm not saying that a PC's class and Feats and all that stuff don't matter. I'm just saying that the level of abstraction of the stats hasn't changed in any appreciable way.

Str tells you about your raw physical strength and always has. Your class & other options tell you how you apply it and how well you use it.

To that end, it is disruptive of my immersive experience to have a race that is nearly 400lbs to be no stronger in raw physical strength than a race that is 220lbs. It doesn't jibe with physics, it doesn't jibe with the fluff of the races in question, it doesn't jibe with the artistic depiction of the races in question, and it doesn't jibe with the history of the races in question across editions. They've been watered down.

True...up to a point. A Half-orc is still only 2x to 2.5x bigger than a hafling...but a Minotaur, Goliath, or Dragonborn may be 3-4x more massive.

Not sure what your point is.

Akin to what was stated above, it is disruptive to the immersive experience that being that is nearly 8' tall and 400lbs is only marginally stronger than a being that is half its height and a quarter its mass.

As always, YMMV.

 

[Nifft]

I'm not asserting that stats are anything other than the least unique part of a PC. However, they should still tell you something unique about the PC and his place in the world.

For example, an extraordinarily high stat is perforce going to set you apart from most other beings. An NPC may be considered quite notable if his Str was, say...22, even if he were nothing but a plowboy and a simpleton. Despite his non-violent nature and humble life, he might nonetheless be a hit at the "County Faire" or the "Harvest Festival" for his feats of strength.

Skill Training in Athletics, Skill Focus (Athletics). Under SW Saga, that's a +10 to his check, the equivalent of 20 class levels. He still sucks as a fighter (and a farmer), but now he's pretty darn good at "feats of strength". What are you complaining about? A system with feats models your idea better than one which would compel him to also be really good at combat.

Those are 2 mutually contradictory paragraphs: either there was some point at which they were the only thing are there was not.

They are not contradictory. I'll spell it out for you:

1/ Previously, some PCs had some of their capabilities fully specified by their ability scores.

2/ Previously and currently, some PCs have at least some of their capabilities not fully specified by ability scores -- they need other stuff, like class and level and perhaps some other limited resource.

3/ Currently, all PCs need a combination of ability score and other stuff to fully specify their capabilities.

Akin to what was stated above, it is disruptive to the immersive experience that being that is nearly 8' tall and 400lbs is only marginally stronger than a being that is half its height and a quarter its mass.

I dare you to pick a fight with a chimp.

While you're in the hospital recovering from that experience, consider the possibility of simply removing the fluff which offends you: don't make the race in question eight foot eleven and over four hundred pounds of lean, angry muscle. Make it just like us humans, but with yellow Star Trek marks on its forehead, or something, and +2 Strength.

Cheers, -- N

 

[billd91]

Skill Training in Athletics, Skill Focus (Athletics). Under SW Saga, that's a +10 to his check, the equivalent of 20 class levels. He still sucks as a fighter (and a farmer), but now he's pretty darn good at "feats of strength". What are you complaining about? A system with feats models your idea better than one which would compel him to also be really good at combat.

SW Saga doesn't have an athletics skill. That's just 4e.
But even so, there's nothing about having a high strength that compels the character to be good at combat. He just ends up being good at strength checks. His BAB could still be very low with significant non-proficiency penalties with weapons.

While you're in the hospital recovering from that experience, consider the possibility of simply removing the fluff which offends you: don't make the race in question eight foot eleven and over four hundred pounds of lean, angry muscle. Make it just like us humans, but with yellow Star Trek marks on its forehead, or something, and +2 Strength.

Yeah, yeah. The old "if the game doesn't work for you, fix it yourself" argument. If that had any compelling strength, we wouldn't have new editions of any game.

 

[Ariosto]

Str tells you about your raw physical strength and always has.

It tells something -- but it has not always been as simple as one might like.

The strength characteristic of a human or humanoid of any type, and of player-characters in particular, is more than a simple evaluation of the musculature of the body. Strength is a composite rating of physical power, endurance, and stamina.

Fellows, if you really want to be so pedantic, then grasp this: There is no such thing as "more" or "less" unique. A thing either is unique or is not.

 

[lutecius]

While you're in the hospital recovering from that experience, consider the possibility of simply removing the fluff which offends you: don't make the race in question eight foot eleven and over four hundred pounds of lean, angry muscle. Make it just like us humans, but with yellow Star Trek marks on its forehead, or something, and +2 Strength.

er... you realize that's exactly his point? game balance stripped away some of the flavour.

 

[Tequila Sunrise]

To that end, it is disruptive of my immersive experience to have a race that is nearly 400lbs to be no stronger in raw physical strength than a race that is 220lbs. It doesn't jibe with physics, it doesn't jibe with the fluff of the races in question, it doesn't jibe with the artistic depiction of the races in question, and it doesn't jibe with the history of the races in question across editions. They've been watered down.

Akin to what was stated above, it is disruptive to the immersive experience that being that is nearly 8' tall and 400lbs is only marginally stronger than a being that is half its height and a quarter its mass.

Ah yes, I agree. No edition of D&D has been particularly realistic in this regard; which is why I don't take D&D very seriously, regardless of edition.

(Nitpick: 1/2 Height = 1/8 mass)

 

[Garthanos]

(Nitpick: 1/2 Height = 1/8 mass)

Well there is a change in build as you get taller you get ganglier and as you get smaller you get stouter. so the relationship amongst human shaped beings is closer to 1/2 height = 1/4 weight.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Skill Training in Athletics, Skill Focus (Athletics). Under SW Saga, that's a +10 to his check, the equivalent of 20 class levels. He still sucks as a fighter (and a farmer), but now he's pretty darn good at "feats of strength". What are you complaining about? A system with feats models your idea better than one which would compel him to also be really good at combat.

Great Str is just a measure of raw physical power. A guy who is an utter brute may not be a competent combatant, and may still be able to level you with the single shot he lands by dint of its sheer force.

And if he never takes a level in a PC class, he'll be less of a threat in melee combat than a high-level mage just by the BAB the latter PC gained.

They are not contradictory. I'll spell it out for you:
<snip>

That's not what you said- your statement used absolutes in its formulation:

They simply are no longer the only thing which does so. You need to combine them with other things -- as listed previously -- to get the whole picture.

This is not some new thing, either. Stats alone have never been enough to fully specify every PC's physical and mental capabilities.

The first statement says that stats "are no longer the only thing" that tells you about a PC's physical & mental talent- implying that there was a point in time when they were the only thing.

The second statement says that "Stats alone never have been" a measure of raw talents- meaning that there was no point in which they were.

Those are contradictory statements.

Akin to what was stated above, it is disruptive to the immersive experience that being that is nearly 8' tall and 400lbs is only marginally stronger than a being that is half its height and a quarter its mass.

I dare you to pick a fight with a chimp.

I adressed this upthread.

They're about 60% the height of an average man, and mass about 110lbs.

An adult male chimp is, according to studies done by Glen Fitch at Yale in 1943, about 2x stronger than an average human male (not an athlete). The results were reproduced in a study done in 1960.

They are able to generate that kind of force because they have different muscle and bone percentages AND a different physique from humans- IOW, they have better mechanical leverage and the musclepower to work it. A chimp's arms are longer than its legs, and are used for quadrupedal locomotion, whereas a human's arms are about 70% the size of their legs and are not used for locomotion.

My point?

Look at the proportions of all of the big powerhouse races- they're all very close to human proportions, just bulkier. They'll have the same kind of mechanical advantages or disadvantages...and they'll be powered by a LOT more muscle.

consider the possibility of simply removing the fluff which offends you

Not my job: I'm not the DM nor the Game Designer- I'm just a customer giving an example within 4Ed that illustrates the point of how certain aspects of the game were sacrificed in favor of balance.