D&D 4E Forgotten Realms 4e Changes: Good/Bad?

If by Rule Zero you mean take a cafeteria approach that strips away enough of the realms so that it's now just a relaively generic setting, then okay. If you mean you just don't learn enough about the world that the setting remains for all intents and purposes a generic setting, then fine. But beyond that, you gotta explain to me what you mean. The powerful personages that shaped the realm were, to many, the setting's defining characterisitc. Much moreso than locales or cultures. That's likely where the great divide that separates the points-of-view.

Every major faction in FR, good or ill, was headed by epic-level powers. Just as your average band of Star Wars heroes simply hasn't got the juice to go kill Vader, you'd have to be swimming at the deepest end of the pool to go topple the Churcch of Bane, Red Wizards, or what have you.

By using rule Zero, I mean for the DM to use their authority and creativity to make the PCs feel like they are the main actors in their stories and taking an active role in the Realms, but not forgetting that it's a living active world. Yes, there are lots of epic level characters in the Realms. Yes, they help add to the flavor of it. I enjoy that. However, Fzoul or Manshoon aren't going to suddenly show up and obliterate the party because they took out a Zhentarim raiding party if you were a good party, or Elminster or Khelben doing the same if you were evil and taking out a few soldiers in Cormyr. That shouldn't happen until the party is of the appropriate level. Until then, a good DM gives the party level appropriate menaces and at the same time adapts the material to let the party make changes in the world. Has anyone really ever played in a world strictly by it's canon? FR? Darksun? Birthright? Mystara? Greyhawke? That has never been my experience. Yours may differ.

Hawkeye
 

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However, Fzoul or Manshoon aren't going to suddenly show up and obliterate the party because they took out a Zhentarim raiding party if you were a good party, or Elminster or Khelben doing the same if you were evil and taking out a few soldiers in Cormyr.
True, and Lord Vader isn't going to show up while you're running around Tantooine shooting womp rats or sand people or whatever seems like an appropriate challenge. Now, maybe some players totall dig that, but for others that's a perfect example of feeling like a bit player in someone else's story, because you know there are people out there doing much cooler things.

But consider this: you weren't talking about skirmishes with Zhentarim radiing parties before. You mentioned "saving the realms time and time again". That will attract the attention of the powers that be. In a setting like 3.5e Eberron, you have to suspend a lot less disbelief as to why a party of 6th-level characters are doing all of the running around to stop an invading force, or why they're able to topple a powerful organization. Your mind won't drift towards that 35th-level archmage with a bunch of 20th-level kids who should be keeping their lands protected. You won't wonder what that 38th-level lich and his 34th-level cleric buddy who have multitudes of 20th-level assassins bending a knee are up to while you're smashing their power base. Maybe you don't anyway, but many folks do, and I don't think has too much to do with their DM's failure to weave a masterful illusion. I think it's got more to do with individual dispositions.

Most of us gamers have been exposed to enough fiction to know when their DM's hanging a lantern, know what I mean?
 
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To be honest, saving the Realms a few times didn't happen until the much higher levels. However, our DMs did manage to give us adventures that were level appropriate that had us saving the village (and destroying one later), then later a town, up to a city, to a nation etc... The whole long thing took us about three calendar years. Yes, we did attract powerful enemies later on, up to a couple of deities that we had to fight. Yes, you will eventually get the big guys after you. I understand you and others wonder why the bigs guys don't do more. It's a valid question. Might I suggest an application of the MAD concept? The reason Fzoul or Manshoon never decided to try to take on Elminster directly is they were worried about not being successful. The reason Elminster doesn't is that he is worried that there might be retribution against people who can't defend themselves as well as he can and that could lead to a massive war that has terrible consequences for the Realms, with deaths of thousands to millions. So, you are left with a war by proxy, no different than the Cold War here on Earth. If it can happen in a world of advanced science, why not the same in a world with advanced magic? Those proxy wars could lead to "cooler things" for others to do, right?

Hawkeye
 

Really, exactly who forced others to put NPC's from novels in others campaigns? I don't recall anything in any FR campaign product saying that Drizzt, Elminster, etc had to make appearances or be the central figures in every FR campaign. I see this same lame argument trotted out over and over again to explain why people hated pre-4e FR or to defend the 4e changes to the FR. Quite frankly, it is so ridiculous that it is laughable. If PC's are overshadowed by NPC's, you have only the DM to blame. A bad DM like that wouldn't need novel NPC's to overshadow your characters. He can easily make his own super powerful DMPC's to do so.
Honestly, this was never my complaint with the late 2e and 3e Realms.

My complaint was that it was a huge, muddled, sprawling, overly-canon-reverent mess. :) The barrier for entry for anyone who wasn't a collector was very high, and the setting left little to no room for DMs anymore. While I'm sure experienced and knowledgable groups could do really cool things with it, there wasn't much room left for the more casual DM.

In the Grey Box, there were certain areas left blank for each DM to describe on their own. Sembia was the biggie. I thought this was one of the setting's biggest strengths - areas of the map left pristine that no canon could touch. When those were explored more thoroughly is when I knew the setting was catering more to the collectors and the canon-hounds than to more casual gamers. (And the explosion of novels didn't help, either!) It lost its use as a construction set for original campaigns and became a super-lore-bound setting where an experienced DM could work their own stories into the NPCs, metaplots, and various storylines.

-O
 

The powerful NPC's in the Realms have responsibilties that keep them from always being around to solve every problem. Even if all they did was going around slaying Zhents and orc hordes, saving villages, etc. they couldn't do it all. They are still mortal and can't be in two places at once. The Realms is a huge place, and there is plenty of adventure for everyone. There are plenty of opportunities for PC's to be the heroes. Besides, the superpowers of the Realms realize that directly confronting each other could be disastrous for both sides. If you are a powerful wizard, do you risk your own life or have your underlings do things for you? There is even a sidebar in the 3.0 FRCS where Elmister uses this same type of arguement to explain why he just doesn't go and try to take out Fzoul or Szass Tam. I will say it once again, if NPC's are the focus of a FR campaign, it's because the DM wants it that way, not because the setting demands that it be that way.
 

The powerful NPC's in the Realms have responsibilties that keep them from always being around to solve every problem. Even if all they did was going around slaying Zhents and orc hordes, saving villages, etc. they couldn't do it all. They are still mortal and can't be in two places at once. The Realms is a huge place, and there is plenty of adventure for everyone. There are plenty of opportunities for PC's to be the heroes. Besides, the superpowers of the Realms realize that directly confronting each other could be disastrous for both sides. If you are a powerful wizard, do you risk your own life or have your underlings do things for you? There is even a sidebar in the 3.0 FRCS where Elmister uses this same type of arguement to explain why he just doesn't go and try to take out Fzoul or Szass Tam. I will say it once again, if NPC's are the focus of a FR campaign, it's because the DM wants it that way, not because the setting demands that it be that way.

I ran a - loose - FR campaign during 3e's reign of terror and I have to say I encountered some difficulties with the NPC's as well.

I didn't let it impact that much on the campaign; I would handwave them away using the usual excuses, but at some stage, I felt, the NPC's would have to appear in the story and as time went on it became difficult to explain why one of the many, many high level PC's didn't appear - mostly to myself.

I found myself keeping the story "below their radar" or else they would surly find out. I grew unsatisfied with the excuses as a DM - my casual players didn't really care that much, they were content to hack and slash their way through dungeons and plots with happy abandon. But my enjoyment of the setting suffered (I also had a love/hate thing with the amount of lore, but that is a different topic).

Like it or lump it, the very high level NPCs are part of the setting as is and they should appear in the game sometimes if you are running a canon(-ish) FR campaign. The 3e FRCG was truly terrible with the obscene levels that the NPCs were stated at. I blame the novels for inflating them to superheroes. I would have been happier to keep them at greybox/2e levels of power.

Elminister level 43? Get outta here.

/rant
 

I ran a long-running FR campaign in 3.5, and the PC's only met one the "famous" FR NPC's, and they were too preoccupied with their own concerns to go and do the PC's job for them, which is exactly as it should be. It wasn't just hand-waving. It made perfect sense, and the PC's got to be heroes. I never felt the need to have Elminster just come and blow the enemies to bits or have Drizzt cut a path of destruction through the orc horde to save or show up the PC's. If you really take a look at the stats of the NPC's in the 3.0 FRCS, they are not that powerful compared to high level PC's. Yes, they are very high level, but really not that impressive when you look at their stats closely.
 

The powerful NPC's in the Realms have responsibilties that keep them from always being around to solve every problem. Even if all they did was going around slaying Zhents and orc hordes, saving villages, etc. they couldn't do it all. They are still mortal and can't be in two places at once. The Realms is a huge place, and there is plenty of adventure for everyone. There are plenty of opportunities for PC's to be the heroes. Besides, the superpowers of the Realms realize that directly confronting each other could be disastrous for both sides. If you are a powerful wizard, do you risk your own life or have your underlings do things for you? There is even a sidebar in the 3.0 FRCS where Elmister uses this same type of arguement to explain why he just doesn't go and try to take out Fzoul or Szass Tam. I will say it once again, if NPC's are the focus of a FR campaign, it's because the DM wants it that way, not because the setting demands that it be that way
I ran a long-running FR campaign in 3.5, and the PC's only met one the "famous" FR NPC's, and they were too preoccupied with their own concerns to go and do the PC's job for them, which is exactly as it should be. It wasn't just hand-waving. It made perfect sense, and the PC's got to be heroes. I never felt the need to have Elminster just come and blow the enemies to bits or have Drizzt cut a path of destruction through the orc horde to save or show up the PC's. If you really take a look at the stats of the NPC's in the 3.0 FRCS, they are not that powerful compared to high level PC's. Yes, they are very high level, but really not that impressive when you look at their stats closely.
"For a 43rd-level wizard, Elminster is kind of meh." :hmm:

OK, let's come to consensus that if the party is level 40+, they should be able to operate in the realms without worrying about being overshadowed. I am big enough of a man to concede that.

But for a lot of folks, D&D's sweet spot is 6th-10th level. How about those guys?

Shaz, your posts are fixating on the notion of FR NPC's appearing on the scene and upstaging the characters. That doesn't really get to the heart of what I or others are trying to convey when we talk about the presence of all these epic characters overshadowing a party of characters trying to carve out their own legend. As I replied to Hawkeye, it has at least as much to do with the knowledge that whatever "level-appropriate" thing your PC's are doing, the really cool stuff is being handled by someone else. Your explanation that the big boys are preoccupied and delegate their light work to underlings (i.e. the PC's) is not a source of consolation, but consternation.

Sure Elminister is too preoccupied to help me kill kobolds. He's got bigger things to be doing, like preventing a demon lord from invading the mortal plane. But the kobolds hassling a few thatch huts full of muck farmers? They're all mine. Now, let's say those kobolds could amass sufficient numbers that they might hope to pose a threat to an entire region, including a place like Silverymoon or Waterdeep or Cormyr, then my party is now handling a major threat which is substantially cooler than bailing out muck farmers. But then the scenario has expanded to the point where it begs the question as to how the rather numerous and powerful protectorates the aforementioned places already have can be too preoccupied to intervene in the razing of their cities by a bunch of uppity kobolds.

Now one day, if my party puts our nose to the grindstone and spends a few years playing, we'll be epic-level. But that won't be a turning point for the realms. It's not like, say, Dark Sun, where the world is crying out for some heroes to get that powerful. We've been beaten to that punch. The ground is well-tread. We're late to the party, and at 21st-level, we're still scrubs.

All of that is what folks mean when they say playing FR felt like playing a minor character in Star Wars. We don't need to be physically shoved out of the way by Luke Skywalker and Darth Vader banging lightsabers together to be made aware that we are supporting cast in their universe. It feels that way without ever having to cross paths with them. As far as I'm hearing, the solution is to not take the big-picture view of the realms. Focus on what's placed before you, and be content with the little slice you're aiming to carve out.
 
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I didn't let it impact that much on the campaign; I would handwave them away using the usual excuses, but at some stage, I felt, the NPC's would have to appear in the story and as time went on it became difficult to explain why one of the many, many high level PC's didn't appear - mostly to myself.

I found myself keeping the story "below their radar" or else they would surly find out. I grew unsatisfied with the excuses as a DM - my casual players didn't really care that much, they were content to hack and slash their way through dungeons and plots with happy abandon. But my enjoyment of the setting suffered (I also had a love/hate thing with the amount of lore, but that is a different topic).

Like it or lump it, the very high level NPCs are part of the setting as is and they should appear in the game sometimes if you are running a canon(-ish) FR campaign.
This touches on a good point. If you're playing in a setting that is principally defined by personalities, you are actually taking something away if those personalities never show up.

In the Star Wars Galaxies, there was initially no interaction between PC's and the major characters of Star Wars. That attempt to keep them at an arm's length turned out to be a mistake, because meeting those NPC's was actually a draw for players.

It occurs to me that an MMO analogy is apt here. Many folks are discouraged from playing WoW by the knowledge that they will never be the 1st or the 100th person to do anything of significance. They will never be the big shots, the movers and shakers. They can only follow in the footstepts of far more hardcore players. Others play WoW casually and aren't bothered by that knowledge at all, because they don't care about the big picture. They just focus on what they're doing. Such is the nature of the divide in this dicsussion.
 

For one thing, the famous epic NPC's in FR are not 40th level, not even near it. A few are in the low 20's. I think Elminster is around 26. A lot aren't even epic level. PC's in their mid to upper teens, especially using lots of 3.5 splatbooks, could easily run with them. Exactly why do the PC's have to be the highest level characters on the planet to accomplish anything? Good luck finding a campaign setting where your 1st level PC's are the baddest things in the whole world. All established campaign settings have a number of high level NPC's. The FR ones are just more well known because of the novels. Do the PC's have to be the most powerful beings on the continent to not be so "overshadowed" that they can actually do any adventuring? Do the PC's say, "Well I was going to go save that village, but since I'm first level and there's a 3rd level wizard that lives in that tower over there, I guess I'll just let him take care of it." Really, are the PC's going to be whiny crybabies because they aren't the baddest guys around, or do they suck it up and go do some adventuring?
 

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