D&D 4E 4e and PC/NPC balance
- Thread starter Mercule
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UngeheuerLich
Legend
You didn´t get me right:
A save can be granted by powers like sacred flame. Thus a cleric can delay so that he can act between the monster and the fighter. And in this way it may be a better idea for the monster to dominate the cleric once in a while.
A save at the end of the turn should not be granted for a power that lasts until the end of your turn. I would rather have save end powers not end before the end of your next turn if it would last that long on a miss...
(and grant a save at the beginning of your turn even on a miss if you are a warden and end it immediately... as it is an extra granted save)
Hellcow
Adventurer
A point that's already been raised is that it's up to the DM to decide who the Concordian dominates. Sometimes that choice may be painfully obvious. But at the same time, there could be situations where the best choice isn't a PC at all.
Let's say the Concordian meets with the PCs in a bar. Trouble arises. The Concordian COULD dominate the fighter for a round. Or... he could dominate the barmaid, a first level minion with low enough Will defense that he will automatically succeed. Attack the Concordian, and he will use Price of Loyalty to have the barmaid fling herself in front of the attack... and as DM, I'm going to declare that as this is a use of a power on his part, he can supersede your usual freedom to decide if the final hit kills or not. You're not attacking her - he's making her throw herself on your blade. If you attack him, you will end up killing the innocent barmaid. And then he'll grab the old drunk. And then the child who just walked in the door. It's even better if this "shield" NPC is someone the PCs know and like - this is the tavern they come to between every adventure, and there's a romance brewing between Fiona and the fighter. The Concordian isn't even going to fight; he's just going to shift and walk to the door, using the dominated NPC's action to keep them close to him. The Aurum are, by and large, on the noir end of the spectrum, and this is good noir flavor. He's a mastermind, not a brawler; faced with a party of adventurers, he should be trying to get away so he can come up with a new plan to deal with them. You can kill this guy - but how many innocents will be killed in the process?
Personally, I'd use this to play up the idea that the PCs are resistant due to their strong will, by saying that if the Concordian targets a minion, he doesn't have to sustain the effect; essentially, it acts like the 8-day 3.5 dominate when he uses it on NPCs. He can have one person dominated at a time. If it's a minion, the effect lasts until he releases them. If it's a PC, it lasts one turn - so he has to fight to maintain it. The effect FEELS natural - the victim feels like the Concordian is a friend - so when it wears off an NPC may be confused and disoriented as opposed to immediately screaming for the watch. They're going to spend a round or so thinking "Why did I do that?" not "I'm finally free!"
Just using it as written, you could deal with this by using forced movement (bull rush or grab, if nothing else) to get the Concordian's victim away from him. If I was allowing the no-need-to-maintain-on-NPC rules, I'd allow the victim to make a save if a PC gave her one - she just wouldn't get to save on her own.
So my point is that as DM you create the situation. Controlling the fighter may be a simple thing to do. But controlling the fighter's minion girlfriend and telling him that she will die if he attacks? That's an Eberron story... and the sort of thing that makes a villain the PCs will really, really hate.
Let's say the Concordian meets with the PCs in a bar. Trouble arises. The Concordian COULD dominate the fighter for a round. Or... he could dominate the barmaid, a first level minion with low enough Will defense that he will automatically succeed. Attack the Concordian, and he will use Price of Loyalty to have the barmaid fling herself in front of the attack... and as DM, I'm going to declare that as this is a use of a power on his part, he can supersede your usual freedom to decide if the final hit kills or not. You're not attacking her - he's making her throw herself on your blade. If you attack him, you will end up killing the innocent barmaid. And then he'll grab the old drunk. And then the child who just walked in the door. It's even better if this "shield" NPC is someone the PCs know and like - this is the tavern they come to between every adventure, and there's a romance brewing between Fiona and the fighter. The Concordian isn't even going to fight; he's just going to shift and walk to the door, using the dominated NPC's action to keep them close to him. The Aurum are, by and large, on the noir end of the spectrum, and this is good noir flavor. He's a mastermind, not a brawler; faced with a party of adventurers, he should be trying to get away so he can come up with a new plan to deal with them. You can kill this guy - but how many innocents will be killed in the process?
Personally, I'd use this to play up the idea that the PCs are resistant due to their strong will, by saying that if the Concordian targets a minion, he doesn't have to sustain the effect; essentially, it acts like the 8-day 3.5 dominate when he uses it on NPCs. He can have one person dominated at a time. If it's a minion, the effect lasts until he releases them. If it's a PC, it lasts one turn - so he has to fight to maintain it. The effect FEELS natural - the victim feels like the Concordian is a friend - so when it wears off an NPC may be confused and disoriented as opposed to immediately screaming for the watch. They're going to spend a round or so thinking "Why did I do that?" not "I'm finally free!"
Just using it as written, you could deal with this by using forced movement (bull rush or grab, if nothing else) to get the Concordian's victim away from him. If I was allowing the no-need-to-maintain-on-NPC rules, I'd allow the victim to make a save if a PC gave her one - she just wouldn't get to save on her own.
So my point is that as DM you create the situation. Controlling the fighter may be a simple thing to do. But controlling the fighter's minion girlfriend and telling him that she will die if he attacks? That's an Eberron story... and the sort of thing that makes a villain the PCs will really, really hate.
Hellcow
Adventurer
Building on my previous post, I'd also emphasize that this ability is very subtle in its manifestation. He's a silver-tongued devil. His eyes don't glow, he doesn't chant magical phrases. He just says "Protect me from this brute, won't you, my dear?" to the barmaid... and suddenly she's ready to fling herself on your sword to save him. When he drops the control, she doesn't even know what happened - a moment ago, it all made perfect sense. Among other things, this also means that to observers, if you attack him and kill her, it looks like you're entirely at fault. Yes, it's his Price of Loyalty power at work, but that's the mechanics of it; metagame, it's that the people he dominates are willing to die to protect him.
Again, when it comes to "how come he can do this and I can't?" - it's because he's a ruthless mastermind who may have spent seven decades and made disturbing pacts to gain this power. You COULD learn this power - if you lived his life, dined on illithid brains for a year (made possible by his ridiculous wealth), made the blood sacrifices he's made, murdered your own brother, and were an utter sociopath (as that's the mindset you need for this to work). He's a dwarf. You're a dwarf. Unless it's a bloodline thing - which it could be, as dragonmarks show - you COULD learn it. But you can't learn it the casual way you learn your next utility power, because that's not the sort of thing it is. He's a character with his own deep history, and if it were me I'd make this ability something he's made a lot of sacrifices to acquire - something explaining why he's such a powerful and influential individual.
As a side note: The Aurum isn't a monolithic organization. As a rule, each powerful member of the Aurum is unique. One might be a crime lord, another a dragonmarked baron, another a Mror banker. Each one has SOMETHING that gives them the power to influence others - something that has let them earn their place in the Concord. But this Concordian is one example of that. This doesn't mean that EVERY Concordian has cool mind-control powers; it's this guys particular angle. If it was me, I'd use it to make this guy a truly memorable and long-term villain. My point is simply that it's not supposed to be a casual "Everyone in this secret society mind controls, why can't I" thing; it's "This particular mastermind is a mind controller."
Again, when it comes to "how come he can do this and I can't?" - it's because he's a ruthless mastermind who may have spent seven decades and made disturbing pacts to gain this power. You COULD learn this power - if you lived his life, dined on illithid brains for a year (made possible by his ridiculous wealth), made the blood sacrifices he's made, murdered your own brother, and were an utter sociopath (as that's the mindset you need for this to work). He's a dwarf. You're a dwarf. Unless it's a bloodline thing - which it could be, as dragonmarks show - you COULD learn it. But you can't learn it the casual way you learn your next utility power, because that's not the sort of thing it is. He's a character with his own deep history, and if it were me I'd make this ability something he's made a lot of sacrifices to acquire - something explaining why he's such a powerful and influential individual.
As a side note: The Aurum isn't a monolithic organization. As a rule, each powerful member of the Aurum is unique. One might be a crime lord, another a dragonmarked baron, another a Mror banker. Each one has SOMETHING that gives them the power to influence others - something that has let them earn their place in the Concord. But this Concordian is one example of that. This doesn't mean that EVERY Concordian has cool mind-control powers; it's this guys particular angle. If it was me, I'd use it to make this guy a truly memorable and long-term villain. My point is simply that it's not supposed to be a casual "Everyone in this secret society mind controls, why can't I" thing; it's "This particular mastermind is a mind controller."
Hellcow
Adventurer
In my mind, if you're ever in a fight with a Concordian, something has gone wrong with his plans. He doesn't want to fight you; he wants his mercenaries or assassins to fight you, while he's sipping a Gold Dragon Margarita on the beach in Stormhome. So combat with him should be less of a "He goes toe to toe and fights to the bitter end, turning your fighter against you" and more "What does he need to do to cover his escape, and is there some clever way you can stop him?"
Hence, the NPCs-as-shields, which while it won't hurt the PCs at all, creates a memorable challenge and highlights what an utterly ruthless bastard this guy is.
Alternative two: He dominates the fighter - and then uses the fighter's action to have him charge another innocent and important minion NPC. The fighter just killed Mayor Bob! Now the city guard is after him! Can you deal with this new chaos? Is there still time to save the Mayor, or is he REALLY dead?
At the end of the day: I hate a long combat in which a player has to sit on the sidelines and watch - and I say that having been that player in too many games. But I think there's a lot of ways dominate can make for fascinating and memorable scenes, depending on the scene you build around the villain.
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