Dark Sun Hopes & Dreams & Fears & Nightmares

[Desdichado]

Like the good Professor, I don't really see a place for the Feywild in Athas.

ZOMG! I had no idea Tolkien had an opinion on it!

 

[TheYeti1775]

Here use this:

The Athain Feywild was at it's height during the Blue Age.
An ancient Eladrin foresaw the defilers and began preaching to the masses of the fey, it is the only time in any history the fey regardless of race and alignment joined together. In it they sundered the Feywild from Athas, in doing so ripping the Athain world from the normal cosmos. They left behind some of their number to destroy any evidence they could. As they knew their lands would supply untold powers to defilers. The few archmages of fey descent were taken with them as well to prevent the knowledge from spreading.
They were very diligent in their quest to erase any recording of it's existance.

Very few fey survive to this day, even fewer even know the legends of the feywild. It is the stuff of legends and fairytales to tell youngsters. Most that hear these tales assume they talk of the Forests where the halflings live and not of a time in which the fey dominated the landscape.

The cloistering of Athas so many eons ago has had it's effect. Even the greatests of mages were trapped on Athas, as planar magics were never taught to the humans. (Remember your Sorceror King history) Priests found their prayers unanswered as their gods no longer heard them, causing great dispair. The elemental princes that were trapped during the sundering found new found powers as they created their own pocket planes and grew in their own powers as worshippers turned to them.

But as all great power such as the cloistering, there is a key to opening it. Where it lies now has been forgotten to time......

edit it to suit yourself.
Explains why there are some fey around, but not many. Can explain legends of it as well.

Or ya could simply give it a chance and wait for it to come out. Who knows they might suprise us with a great product.

 

[Mouseferatu]

No, I think I grokked your idea just fine, I know it wasn't about DS, I just noticed that the words you chose to describe Kara-Tur and Al-Quadim being shoehorned into the Realms are similar to the initial reaction I have to the idea of the Feywild being shoehorned into Dark Sun (or, to look at it another way, Dark Sun being shoehorned into the 4e core setting's assumptions).

Okay, I see where you're coming from. I still don't necessarily agree they're analogous, but I see why you see them as such. And that's a lot of "sees."

To me, though, the Feywild (or Shadowfell, or Elemental Chaos, or whatever) isn't an aspect of PoLand, but a mechanical framework for the assumptions of the game--much like the Great Wheel was in 1E/2E. And as with the Great Wheel, while I would indeed prefer that it not impinge on every setting (I liked the fact that 3E Eberron had its own cosmology), I don't have a major problem with it doing so.

Or, to put it another way... Athas wasn't free of the Great Wheel. Yes, the planar connections were tougher and rarer, due to Athas's isolation, but they weren't absent. Many published Dark Sun sources referenced outsiders of various sorts (demons, elementals, and githyanki come most immediately to mind). As long as said incursions were the exception, rather than the norm, it didn't seem to harm the setting's veracity or theme. (Other things did harm the setting's theme, but we won't go there. )

So I'm wondering... In your mind, why is this cosmology any different, assuming its impact isn't any stronger than the old cosmology's was? Or is your concern specifically that--due to its connections to major aspects of 4E like the eladrins--that it will have a stronger impact?

 

[Withnail]

Never run/read that one. But I hold by my original point. Just because a published adventure goes away from what I see as being "the point" to the setting, doesn't mean I'm wrong. I mean, look at some of the later DS products - the setting jumped the shark pretty early on, unfortunately.

I seem to remember a drawing of a (Type IV? in 2e speak) demon being summoned in the first ed boxed set.

 

[I'm A Banana]

Okay, I see where you're coming from.

On the internet, that's no small thing.

To me, though, the Feywild (or Shadowfell, or Elemental Chaos, or whatever) isn't an aspect of PoLand, but a mechanical framework for the assumptions of the game--much like the Great Wheel was in 1E/2E.

If I grok your meaning right here, I think you're seeing crunch where there's fluff. Cosmology is, as far as I can see, always story/fluff/flavor/world-elements/whateveryawannacallit, and 4e especially has a strong divide between that stuff and all the rules/math/crunch/mechanic/etc. In other words, I don't think there's anything about the mechanics of 4e that mandate the planar structure that 4e uses. It's all just the ephemera of fiction. So they aren't part of the mechanical framework, as far as I can tell. They're flexible and changeable. Like how halflings can be dinosaur-riding natives in one setting and be hobbits in another and be cannibal jungle-dwellers in a third and be completely nonexistent in a fourth.

For instance, Gamma World probably isn't using the planar structure, but it's still using the 4e rules, right? That's part of my thought process here: the rules don't imply the World Axis. So any bit of the core cosmology that's present is there for, say, marketing, or compatibility, or the mandate to make "everything core," or some reason aside from rules.

Not that it can't be fine and dandy and even awesome, but just like how halflings don't have to be in every setting, neither does the Feywild, I think. The rules can work fine without it. And if there's a compelling reason not to include it (forex, the idea that magic and nature are what the Feywild is made of, and the idea that magic and nature are exactly what Dark Sun is severed from), it doesn't have to be there.

Or, to put it another way... Athas wasn't free of the Great Wheel. Yes, the planar connections were tougher and rarer, due to Athas's isolation, but they weren't absent. Many published Dark Sun sources referenced outsiders of various sorts (demons, elementals, and githyanki come most immediately to mind). As long as said incursions were the exception, rather than the norm, it didn't seem to harm the setting's veracity or theme. (Other things did harm the setting's theme, but we won't go there. )

I think you'd find plenty of disagreement on that last point (I think one of the other threads pointed out that githyanki episode as embarrassing, and another poster said that DS doesn't have demons and devils, and that it's a good thing, though the elemental largely do get a pass because, again, they were worked into the setting), and a wealth of support for the concept that part of what makes Dark Sun appealing and keeps it making sense is that, as far as the assumptions of the world are concerned, functionally, you can't escape it.

Athas was part of the Great Wheel officially, but I, personally, have never seen that as a positive thing. Like making Al-Quadim part of FR, it was a shoehorning process, a rough fit, and ultimately more harmful to the setting than constructive to it. Dark Sun didn't need the Great Wheel.

I think that 4e has a wonderful opportunity not to repeat the mistakes of the past.

So I'm wondering... In your mind, why is this cosmology any different, assuming its impact isn't any stronger than the old cosmology's was? Or is your concern specifically that--due to its connections to major aspects of 4E like the eladrins--that it will have a stronger impact?

I'm not a purist. I don't long for the setting as it was under 2e (I didn't play much of it, and anyway I look forward more when I game than backwards). My concern is for the play at the table. I want my players, at least for Heroic Teir, to feel certain things in a Dark Sun game.

• The players should feel their characters are struggling to simply stay alive. If your character can run away from this suffering, the drama of the struggle is diminished.
• The players should feel that their world is next to death. If your character can go to a place where stuff is EVEN WORSE on a regular basis, the drama of their world being so bad is diminished.

This makes Dark Sun distinct, special, and significant. It makes Dark Sun stand out amongst D&D settings. It allows me to tell different stories in Dark Sun than I can in standard D&D. That's the selling point of Dark Sun, of any setting, really: you can tell different stories there. I want to see Dark Sun be awesome, and be a success (mostly in that order, though I get WotC's priorities might be the reverse. ).

So it's not so much that I feel this cosmology is different, it's more that I feel that planehopping hurts Dark Sun in any capacity.

And my concern is that, due to marketing, or compatibility, or the mandate to make "everything core," or a lack of imagination, or some other reason (and I don't see the rules as a possible reason), Dark Sun's potential awesome is going to be diminished.

That would suck.

But I am pretty confident.

 

[Mouseferatu]

If I grok your meaning right here, I think you're seeing crunch where there's fluff. Cosmology is, as far as I can see, always story/fluff/flavor/world-elements/whateveryawannacallit, and 4e especially has a strong divide between that stuff and all the rules/math/crunch/mechanic/etc.

Yeah, no argument there. "Mechanical" was a very poor word choice on my part. I was referring more to a common set of framework assumptions that encompass the settings--which is why I referred to the Great Wheel as another example. I was not referring to "mechanics" in the sense of "game rules."

I think you'd find plenty of disagreement on that last point (I think one of the other threads pointed out that githyanki episode as embarrassing, and another poster said that DS doesn't have demons and devils, and that it's a good thing, though the elemental largely do get a pass because, again, they were worked into the setting)

Well, sure I will. But the fact is, it was there--and actually, there were demons in Athas, just really damn rare--and yet, the setting got the feel it was looking for despite these occasional instances of demons and githyanki. So certainly in an overall sense, they didn't harm the setting's theme, even if they did so for some specific players.

Bottom line is that given my druthers, I actually agree with you, in as much as I'd actually prefer Athas to be completely isolated/separate from the planes--just as I'd have preferred it to have been in 2E. But also, as it wasn't dramatically harmed back in 2E for not being 100% isolated, I don't think that it'll be harmed if it's not 100% isolated in 4E, so long as the connections remain weak/rare, or else are otherwise explained away as not actually being what people are afraid of them being.

I have no idea if that paragraph made any sense at all, and I've spent too much of today writing to have the mental fortitude to tweak it.

 

[Keefe the Thief]

ZOMG! I had no idea Tolkien had an opinion on it!

He also has an opinion on your future Dark Sun campaign, and it is *not* good, if you get my drift.

Tolkiens expertise on apocalyptical desert planets has been well-researched, however. Just look up the relevant pages in the Athasarillion (326 - 1068, also cf. appendix XI).

 

[Silverblade The Ench]

Athas isn't just Barsoom, it has a fairly large Clark Ashton Smith flavour to it, too...anicent, mysterious, horror...plus Smith's conemporary, Robert E Howard!

So, Barsoom + Stygia + Zothique

Zothique - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[pneumatik]

The best way I've been able to think about the standard cosmology / great wheel references in Dark Sun publications is that travel to the "standard" 2e DnD planes is hard on Athas, even for epic spellcasters. No matter how powerful you become traveling to another prime material plane will be hard. It will still be doable, but only if there's an epic-scale adventure behind it.

It's not perfect. I'd rather Athas be completely isolated. But at least with the published cannon escaping Athas to another plane can be constantly dangled in front of players as a happy ending they can never reach. It can give just enough hope to the players and PCs the idea that things really could be much better that they make the effort, even if they're always doomed to failure.

 

[KidSnide]

Well, sure I will. But the fact is, it was there--and actually, there were demons in Athas, just really damn rare--and yet, the setting got the feel it was looking for despite these occasional instances of demons and githyanki. So certainly in an overall sense, they didn't harm the setting's theme, even if they did so for some specific players.

Bottom line is that given my druthers, I actually agree with you, in as much as I'd actually prefer Athas to be completely isolated/separate from the planes--just as I'd have preferred it to have been in 2E. But also, as it wasn't dramatically harmed back in 2E for not being 100% isolated, I don't think that it'll be harmed if it's not 100% isolated in 4E, so long as the connections remain weak/rare, or else are otherwise explained away as not actually being what people are afraid of them being.

A game setting is pretty big. And, yes, Dark Sun is cool enough (well, not literally) that the minor presence of inappropriate extra-planar material, whether Great Wheel or Feywild/Shadowfell probably isn't going to make the setting suck completely and irrevocably. For that matter, a back history that makes Athas the remnants of a "standard vanilla D&D fantasy world" is a bad design decision but doesn't totally destroy the otherwise-fun-to-play-in present day Athas. So yes, a good idea like Dark Sun can suffer through these design decisions without being totally wrecked.

But that doesn't mean the design decisions are a good idea. Whether or not they are tied into the rules, concepts like the Great Wheel or the 4e Cosmology are setting specific ideas. Sure, they can be applied to multiple "prime material planes", but that doesn't make it a good idea to incorporate them into the setting. Does Al-Qadim need githyanki? Kara-tur? I say, "no". Those settings are thematically special, and they aren't helped by making them more like vanilla D&D. The same thing is true of Dark Sun. Sure, you can add in the 4e cosmology without totally breaking the setting, but it's still a poor design decision.*

-KS

(*) To be fair, I'm open to the possibility that the WotC story folks have found such a good implementation that it's worthwhile. I'm just skeptical that the idea will be that good. World design has not been a 4e strength so far...