Dark Sun Hopes & Dreams & Fears & Nightmares

[AllisterH]

Yeah...never really thought Al-Qadim fitted well into the Realms...

Especially with the pantheonistic nature of the main Realms versus the Loregiver non-deity based nature of Al-Qadim.

Another side question...

Given how, shall we say, tense the situation is with the Arabic world, do you think we will EVER see an updated Al-Qadim?

(Weirdly, pre DBZ/Sailor Moon, I would've said that the most well known fantasy influence outside of Arthurian/Medieval mythology was the tales of Sinbad et al but I've noticed a distinct lack of use of it in ALL types of media, not jsut RPGs)

 

[AdmundfortGeographer]

Given how, shall we say, tense the situation is with the Arabic world, do you think we will EVER see an updated Al-Qadim?

The "situation" was as tense then as now.

I don't think we'll ever see an updated Al-Qadim because while it had tremendous production values and excellent flavor, it was never popular.

 

[Mouseferatu]

...this holds remarkably true for the way I feel about the Feywild in Dark Sun, too.

*blink*

If so, I think you got my point completely backwards.

What I was saying has pretty much no relationship with the Darksun/Feywild issue, either for or against. The Feywild is not, in and of itself, a setting.

Al-Qadim was a setting, that was (I believe after the fact) shoe-horned into a larger setting. My arguments against doing so have nothing to do with whether or not FR gains or loses by AQ's (or Kara-Tur's) addition, and more to do with what AQ and KT lose by being made part of something larger.

Unless the Feywild had been presented as a fully functioning and independent setting unto itself, and was later smushed into Dark Sun (or any other setting), I don't really see the two situations as analogous.

 

[AllisterH]

The "situation" was as tense then as now.

I don't think we'll ever see an updated Al-Qadim because while it had tremendous production values and excellent flavor, it was never popular.

I'm not sure about that last point.

Al-Qadim I remember them being designed explictly as a two year setting but demand actually made them put out another year of product.

(Now there's ANOTHER way to have multiple campaign settings...Simply have each campaign setting be only for a strict amount of time and then move on)

As for the former, while Al-Qadim was published after Gulf War I, it was BEFORE Guld War II and September 11th.

 

[pneumatik]

Athas, turned up to 11. I'm not sure that's especially interesting though. Athas already had the standard fantasy world "turned up to 11, with lotsa sand". So the Athasian Feywild is turned up to eleventy-eleven?

I wanted to portray the the feywild as a place as bad and deadly as the negative energy plane. Go there unprepared and you die in minutes. Research and plenty of magical/psionic prep will allow you to survive there for a while. There's no reason to bother, though, because there's nothing there. I think that if experienced 4E players play a Dark Sun game a ruined feywild is a good way to emphasize how ruined the natural world of Athas is. I don't think the setting by itself really needs it, but as a 4E product I think you can do good stuff with it.

 

[Vanuslux]

It has been long enough since the last time I cracked open a Dark Sun product that I don't have a great deal off attachment to specific details. All I hope for is for the reimagining of the setting to have a flavor close enough to the one I loved long ago for me to get a similar enjoyment out of it. Even if they were striving for an out and out straight adaptation there's no way it would be exactly the same anyway.

Sent from my MB300 using Tapatalk

 

[humble minion]

Is there any reason that the Grey shouldn't BE the Feywild?

Athas is a land with the life sucked out of it. Slowly dying. Surely that instead of just making rough terrain even more rough terrain-y, the zeitgeist (for want of a better word) of Athas is perfectly well represented by a plane of the dead, where nothing grows and where old spirits linger dangerously until they finally dissolve away to nothing, taking their memories and lore with them.

Athas is a tomb. Orcs, gnomes, ogres, lizardmen, kobolds, goblins, and especially every kind of nature spirit or natural fey you could think of - 'modern' Athas is built on the dust of uncounted bones. Why shouldn't its feywild be a land of the dead?

 

[Pbartender]

Just to be clear, this...

I don't think the setting by itself really needs it, but as a 4E product I think you can do good stuff with it.

...actually sums up my thoughts on the matter concisely.

I think there's quite some potential for adding in the Feywild, if they can find a way to do it right. I think there's equal potential for it to be a detriment, should they do it wrong. I also don't think it's a necessity, and that Dark sun would be just fine without it as well.

I'm just finding it interesting to consider the options of what an Athasian Feywild might look like and how it could reasonably be included.

 

[I'm A Banana]

If so, I think you got my point completely backwards.

No, I think I grokked your idea just fine, I know it wasn't about DS, I just noticed that the words you chose to describe Kara-Tur and Al-Quadim being shoehorned into the Realms are similar to the initial reaction I have to the idea of the Feywild being shoehorned into Dark Sun (or, to look at it another way, Dark Sun being shoehorned into the 4e core setting's assumptions).

The Feywild is not, in and of itself, a setting.

This raises a curious ancillary point in my mind. What separates the Feywild (or the Shadowfell or almost any other plane for that matter) from a complete setting?

It has protagonists (eladrin, gnomes, "good fey"), antagonists (fomorians, "the unseelie fey"), "neutral parties" (primal power source folks), its own distinct flavor ("nature and arcane magic run wild!"). It doesn't come with its own class or monster book, PC and DM options, etc., but I really think it *could*, easily.

What makes a setting, in and of itself, a setting? The Feywild hasn't been called out as a unique setting, but it seems like it would support it easily. Is all it takes that branding, that label, or is there something else?

Figuring out this may get close to the idea of why I'm kind of skeeved out by the idea of making every 4e setting have a functional Feywild (or any other plane being forced onto any other setting, for that matter).

Al-Qadim was a setting, that was (I believe after the fact) shoe-horned into a larger setting. My arguments against doing so have nothing to do with whether or not FR gains or loses by AQ's (or Kara-Tur's) addition, and more to do with what AQ and KT lose by being made part of something larger.

I see the distinction, but I think there's a similarity here, born out by the language.

If you replace FR with "4e's core setting" (which includes the Feywild, the Shadowfell, and all the World Axis stuff), and KT/AQ with "4e settings", I think the argument remains the same.

The idea that settings should remain distinct, and not be forced into any over-arching whole, is at the core of both of these. By giving Dark Sun (or any setting) a Feywild is a lot like giving KT/AQ a Faerun.

I think that's why the language would be so similar. It's expressing the same thought: an independent setting should remain independent. Dark Sun doesn't need to fit into the 4e World Axis model. Neither did FR or Eberron. The setting needs be itself, first and foremost.

Unless the Feywild had been presented as a fully functioning and independent setting unto itself, and was later smushed into Dark Sun (or any other setting), I don't really see the two situations as analogous.

4e's Feywild is part of 4e's core setting, part of PoLland, and not inherent to the 4e experience. So putting Dark Sun into that model is not unlike putting Al-Quadim in Toril.

The Feywild also may have qualities that make it functionally a setting (at the very least, even if it is not its own, it is part of a different setting). So cramming it and Dark Sun together is not unlike putting Kara-Tur in Toril.

It's a little different in specifics, but I think the overall effect carries the same sort of idea: a setting should retain its own integrity. Putting the Feywild in Dark Sun is equivalent to putting Dark Sun in 4e's core setting, which would be something like making Dark Sun a continent in FR. I think you can see why such a thing would be potentially troubling.

Not that it couldn't be pulled off, of course.

 

[Desdichado]

People I game with face-to-face have said that exact same thing. These days I'm thinking that's true of all of 2e. It doesn't really want to be D&D. It would be happier if it had Prince Valiant's rules.

I was thinking more along the lines of how the developers for Dark Sun have stated (in that Campaign setting retrospective issue of Dragon a few years back) that they weren't even going to include dwarves, elves, regular magic, and all that jazz unil the bosses essentially told them that they had to.

Dark Sun was going to be Barsoom + Dune with the various VIN's filed off so nobody could claim plagiarism.

Although the completely separate point you're making: that has a lot of merit, too.