How to resolve multiple "at the start of your turn" effects and miss damage

[Aulirophile]

Dungeons and Dragons is not a collectable card game. Not every rule has to be explicit or precisely defined.

The -correct- answer is:

Whatever the DM deems is fair or that circumstance.


There is no consistant 'this way and no other way' rule. This case is 100% subject to DM arbitration. He might have a reason things go one way or not the other.

If you want to play D&D that way, that is your choice. I prefer playing games by their rules. If I find a game has poor rules, I don't fix them, I move onto another game.. because let's face it, there are a lot of very good games out there.

It is possible the dev team will clarify questions like this at some point, but until then when someone asks a question about start of turn effects I'll quote the only actual rule we have. And, as a DM and a player, giving DMs sole discretion over rules that could use some clarifying does not appeal to me. At all. So that simply isn't an answer I am ever likely to give for rules questions.

 

[keterys]

If you want to play D&D that way, that is your choice. I prefer playing games by their rules. If I find a game has poor rules, I don't fix them, I move onto another game.. because let's face it, there are a lot of very good games out there.

It is possible the dev team will clarify questions like this at some point, but until then when someone asks a question about start of turn effects I'll quote the only actual rule we have. And, as a DM and a player, giving DMs sole discretion over rules that could use some clarifying does not appeal to me. At all. So that simply isn't an answer I am ever likely to give for rules questions.

Can you prove him wrong? Can you provide any other ruling? There is no order of operations given on the page you listed, and one item in particular is clearly not an ordered operation: No Actions. It applies throughout. That is a list of indeed everything that happens at the start of your turn, with no information given.

Therefore, the player is told "Do 5 things" and either the player or the DM arbitrates what happens.

 

[Aulirophile]

Can you prove him wrong? Can you provide any other ruling? There is no order of operations given on the page you listed, and one item in particular is clearly not an ordered operation: No Actions. It applies throughout. That is a list of indeed everything that happens at the start of your turn, with no information given.

Therefore, the player is told "Do 5 things" and either the player or the DM arbitrates what happens.

There isn't one, but "they all happen at the same time" provides no mechanical benefit to either players or NPCs, which is something 4e strives for and the rules text we do have says, in essence "all start of turn actions go off, then you take your turn."

As you pointed out, players may take No Actions at the start of their turn. I would certainly call deciding the order of effects, at the very least, a free action, which they cannot take at the start of their turn. So.

 

[mneme]

As you pointed out, players may take No Actions at the start of their turn. I would certainly call deciding the order of effects, at the very least, a free action, which they cannot take at the start of their turn. So.

Huh? No. Nor is thinking, or the player getting a soda. Deciding the order of what happens is just what they do; it's not an action at all.

That said, it could be clearer in the rules (for start of turn; it's explicit for a lot of other stuff). But it's also the only thing that makes sense.

 

[Jhaelen]

If you want to play D&D that way, that is your choice. I prefer playing games by their rules. If I find a game has poor rules, I don't fix them, I move onto another game.. because let's face it, there are a lot of very good games out there.

Sounds like it's time for you to move on, then.

DracoSuave is spot on. RPGs have a GM for a reason. No amount of rules will ever be able to replace a GM so it's not a reasonable goal to have a rule for everything.

 

[firesnakearies]

There doesn't seem to be any reason not to simply say that all start of turn effects happen simultaneously, and don't invalidate each other.

If I have 3 hit points, and at the start of my turn I'm going to take 5 damage AND heal 5 damage, it seems simple to me to say that I get that damage and healing at the exact same time, functionally meaning that my hit points don't change.

 

[keterys]

There isn't one, but "they all happen at the same time" provides no mechanical benefit to either players or NPCs, which is something 4e strives for and the rules text we do have says, in essence "all start of turn actions go off, then you take your turn."

Unfortunately, I believe that's impossible.

For example, let's take someone with 5 hp, who has ongoing 5 damage, and regeneration 5. You _have_ to do the regeneration first, or you paradox the system. You can handwave and say 'Oh, they both happen, no biggie' - but one reduces you to 0 hp, making you prone and unconscious, triggering immediates that trigger off 0 hp, and the other doesn't work at all when you're at 0 hp.

A Warden gets to make a save at the start of their turn - they want to save against the ongoing damage. They can't "all happen simultaneous" - his save needs to be addressed to determine whether he takes the damage at all.

If he's wearing a Torc of Fortune, you need to know whether he shifts for looking at auras and zones. Perhaps even in multiple cases (might shift out of one into another one)

Etc. There isn't a lot of "simultaneous" in D&D. In fact, a search of simultaneous and simultaneously turns up a bare handful of hits, mostly with respect to swapping places and mage hand.

 

[firesnakearies]

Interesting points, keterys. In that case, I'd say that it's fine to just let the player (or DM in the case of NPCs) choose the order of operations for start of turn effects.

 

[Joshua Randall]

I don't have my PH with me, but I am positive that it states that the player can choose what order to resolve actions at the start/end of his turn.

Some quotes along the same lines:

Saving Throws
End of Turn: At the end of your turn, you make a saving throw against each effect on you that a save can end.

Choose Order: Whenever you make a saving throw, you choose which effect to roll against first, which effect to roll against second, and so on.

Turn
On your turn, you take actions: a standard action, a move action, a minor action, and any number of free actions, in any order you wish.

 

[Infiniti2000]

My rule of thumb is that any 'positive' effects go first (e.g. healing, regeneration, warden saves) and 'negative' effects go second (damage, status effects). This is almost always what the player would choose anyway and avoids the unforeseen stupid case where the player could cheese the system by choosing a negative effect first.

I hate gaming cheese.