Mutants & Masterminds 3rd Edition

[Dr. Confoundo]

You know, I hope they do a little more with PL. It was okay for balancing some combat powers, but I never worried about that very much. It was actually more troublesome to me that a speedster could be nearly anywhere on Earth in minutes, or that characters might be able to lift staggering amounts of weight. That is far more significant to me as far as the campaign goes than one character being a killer in combat.

Those are things that the GM can limit, if they don't want their game to be a high-power universe (like DC Comics). If you want to model a more realistic world, just put a cap on things like that... but don't change the ruleset, because it works for me.

 

[Nebulous]

Despite owning MM2e and several sourcebooks, i never actually played it. We intended to but it just got overshadowed by other systems. However, i will probably pick up the 3rd edition to see what has changed, and maybe finally squeak a campaign out of it. Personally, i was a little overwhelmed by the character creation process, you could do literally anything you could imagine. And while liberating, that's hard for me to absorb with a totally new ruleset.

 

[Jeff Wilder]

Really? I love that. It exactly mirrors comic books; I'd be really disappointed if it disappears. I dislike trying to build an iconic hero who just isn't good at heroing.

I agree. I was squinting at pawsplay's post, thinking, "But ... Quicksilver can be anywhere on Earth in minutes. The Thing can lift staggering amounts of weight."

I dunno if pawsplay falls into this category, but I've noticed that many people seem to be a little thrown by M&M's "your character starts at comic book levels of power." I think it's because it's relatively uncommon in d20 games, even though "starting at professional level" is common in other systems.

 

[Doug McCrae]

In the last game I ran there was a speedster who could be anywhere on Earth in a round, at his base power level. It was a global JLA/Avengers type of campaign. Tbh it was a little too fast. Anywhere on Earth in a couple minutes would have made some more interesting situations possible with him maybe having to push himself if was going down in two or more places at once.

In the same campaign, two superstrong characters, a PC and an NPC, had an iceberg hurling competition, which I think the PC won quite narrowly. The PCs had joined forces with a Russian superteam and were discussing their plans on a small island at the edge of the Arctic circle. These two characters just got bored.

 

[pawsplay]

Really? I love that. It exactly mirrors comic books; I'd be really disappointed if it disappears. I dislike trying to build an iconic hero who just isn't good at heroing.

It mirrors the JLA or the Avengers, you mean. There are a few X-Men in that category of power, over the years. You know what all of those individuals have in common? I wouldn't peg them at PL 10! While it may have less combat potential, I think being able to zip around the world is at least as significant, in terms of writing an adventure story, as being able to bounce a rocket off your chest. I never said I objected to globe-trotting speedsters, just that I thought PL should be applicable to their most significant abilities.

 

[pawsplay]

I dunno if pawsplay falls into this category, but I've noticed that many people seem to be a little thrown by M&M's "your character starts at comic book levels of power." I think it's because it's relatively uncommon in d20 games, even though "starting at professional level" is common in other systems.

No, not at all. I'm thrown by the fact that even if you dial the campaign down to PL 8, you can still travel at mind-boggling speeds. Nor am I sheltered d20 player; I actually wrote a Pyramid article about applying social traits to GURPS Supers game.

 

[Jeff Wilder]

It mirrors the JLA or the Avengers, you mean. There are a few X-Men in that category of power, over the years. You know what all of those individuals have in common? I wouldn't peg them at PL 10!

Why?

hile it may have less combat potential, I think being able to zip around the world is at least as significant, in terms of writing an adventure story, as being able to bounce a rocket off your chest.

I agree. But so is the ability to reliably spot and analyze the slimmest of forensic evidence, for instance. Different super-heroes can do different amazing things.

I never said I objected to globe-trotting speedsters, just that I thought PL should be applicable to their most significant abilities.

Power Level is almost entirely a construct for combat balance, and trying to apply it to non-combat balance (outside of the limited areas like skills, which IMO was only done so as to include combat applications for skills) is opening a huge and ugly can of worms.

Note that a PL 10 speedster can acquire offensive (and to some extent defensive) facets of his super-speed at higher effectiveness than a PL 8 speedster. And if the PL is tied to points (as it usually is for PCs) the PL 10 speedster will be faster, more versatile, and/or more effective overall.

Super-speed isn't limited by Power Level (other than by points) because it really doesn't need to be. The comic book genre can easily handle speedsters zipping around the globe, and GMs can simply set a limit if they're running a less four-color campaign.

(So far as I know, BTW, isn't Quicksilver still the fastest character in the Marvel universe, aside from long range teleporters? And Quicksilver is definitely not higher than PL 10. In fact, Taliesin (rules-guru/hero-builder supreme on Atomic think Tank) pegs him at PL 9.)

 

[pawsplay]

(So far as I know, BTW, isn't Quicksilver still the fastest character in the Marvel universe, aside from long range teleporters? And Quicksilver is definitely not higher than PL 10. In fact, Taliesin (rules-guru/hero-builder supreme on Atomic think Tank) pegs him at PL 9.)

That version has Super Speed 6 (500 mph) with some ability to move faster in bursts. A character who can move a little faster than a jet plane is not a problem for PL 10. The Speedster archetype in Instant Heroes has Super Speed 9 (5000 mph), and with a little wiggling, can be upgraded to Super Speed 10 and qualify for Insubstantiality as a power feat.

 

[pawsplay]

Power Level is almost entirely a construct for combat balance, and trying to apply it to non-combat balance (outside of the limited areas like skills, which IMO was only done so as to include combat applications for skills) is opening a huge and ugly can of worms.

I don't think it's all that useful for combat balance, and it might be somewhat useful for non-combat stuff. I think it could use some looking at.

 

[Jeff Wilder]

The Speedster archetype in Instant Heroes has Super Speed 9 (5000 mph), and with a little wiggling, can be upgraded to Super Speed 10 and qualify for Insubstantiality as a power feat.

And ... ?

I don't think it's all that useful for combat balance

It's extremely useful for combat balance. Not perfect, but extremely useful.

and it might be somewhat useful for non-combat stuff.

I don't even know what that means. Consider Superman and Batman, out of combat. Which is more "powerful"? I think the attempt to balance out-of-combat stuff would destroy the ability of the game to emulate the genre.

I think it could use some looking at.

Psst! Take a look at the title of the thread!