Ogre Mage - CR 8?

[pawsplay]

Drop a fighter 50 feet and deal him 5d6 damage (average 17.5 damage). Meanwhile, you've done nothing but ascend for 5 rounds and made yourself a target denied dex bonus all the time. Can you see how that would be a bad thing?

Not really. The ogre mage's AC isn't all that great anyway, and you won't be able to sneak attack him from a range while he's holding the fighter. He is a better grappler than the fighter, and if the fighter "wins," he falls and takes damage. Provided the ogre mage uses this tactic at a good opportunity and doesn't use it at a very bad opportunity, I don't see much of a problem.

 

[Dandu]

Why can't the wizard simply cast detect invis to pinpoint the location of the ogre mage before zapping him with glitterdust?

I used Glitterdust because Glitterdust is a spell that is more generally applicable to adventuring situations than See Invisibility, since Glitterdust can be used to just blind things as well.

What if the player isn't smart and dumps Con? At 1 HP/lv, it might be possible to be killed by a grapple.

This is quite possible. However, despite my low opinion of my fellow man in general, I try to remind myself that people generally aren't complete and total idiots.

Not really. The ogre mage's AC isn't all that great anyway, and you won't be able to sneak attack him from a range while he's holding the fighter.

I'm not sure what you are talking about, since a rogue can sneak attack at a range of 30 feet.

He is a better grappler than the fighter, and if the fighter "wins," he falls and takes damage.

Why do you portray the fighter is an idiot? If he wins the grapple 50 feet above ground, he might choose to continue grappling in order to deal more damage to the ogre mage, while his friends plug the enemy with arrows.

Provided the ogre mage uses this tactic at a good opportunity and doesn't use it at a very bad opportunity, I don't see much of a problem.

Why do you keep assuming that the ogre mage will use the best tactics available while the players will all act like chickens with their heads cut off?

 

[pawsplay]

I'm not sure what you are talking about, since a rogue can sneak attack at a range of 30 feet.

Firing into a grapple gives you a 50% chance of hitting your own ally. Presumably, this makes sneak attack impossible, as such a miss chance implies a lack of precision; if it is not impossible, it makes the shot a dangerous gamble. And your fighter doesn't regenerate...

Why do you portray the fighter is an idiot? If he wins the grapple 50 feet above ground, he might choose to continue grappling in order to deal more damage to the ogre mage, while his friends plug the enemy with arrows.

Every arrow that hits has a 50% chance of hitting him. He can choose to grapple, but he won't be as effective as the ogre mage.

Why do you keep assuming that the ogre mage will use the best tactics available while the players will all act like chickens with their heads cut off?

I'm going from my my experiences running ogre magi in combat, plus some basic extrapolations in response to some of the scenarios you are suggesting. It's certainly possible for a party to be well-prepared for an ogre mage encounter, but it's not possible to be well-prepared for every possible encounter.

I think it's reasonable to assume that a genius-level monster, fighting solo, in a planned encounter, is going to use nearly the best tactics. As for the players, well, they can make their own beds. In a normal scenario, I think the ogre mage is going to justify his CR; glitterdusts will be expended, hit points lost, and so forth, and against a lower level party, fatalities may occur.

 

[Dandu]

Firing into a grapple gives you a 50% chance of hitting your own ally.

Yes, you're right, that is a problem that I overlooked. Ranged attacks in a grapple are out. (Unless they are spells cast directly on the Ogre Mage, which considering he left the casters alone, will probably start flying.)

It's still quite possible for the fighter to escape grapple, take a small amount of damage (you can negate 1d6 of it with a jump check if you deliberately fall), and have the party pincushion the Ogre Mage after.

He can choose to grapple, but he won't be as effective as the ogre mage.

Being 2 points behind on his grapple modifier isn't going to kill him.

I think it's reasonable to assume that a genius-level monster, fighting solo, in a planned encounter, is going to use nearly the best tactics.

Ogre Mage has Int 14, Wis 14, Cha 17. It's above average, but not quite a genius. Well, for humans anyways.

I think the ogre mage is going to justify his CR; glitterdusts will be expended, hit points lost, and so forth, and against a lower level party, fatalities may occur.

I think I'd walk over it if I was in an 8th level party that got ambushed by an Ogre Mage and was fulfilling the role of arcane caster, but maybe that's just because I'm good at the game and going by my personal experiences.

 

[pawsplay]

Sure, and as I said above, the ogre mage is more like a CR 7.5 than a solid 8, and a strange critter, at that.

 

[Runestar]

He can. Provided he has both detect invisibility and glitterdust memorized. Meanwhile, in some other thread he wishes he had enlarge person and resist energy while he's fighting a drow warlock with chilling tentacles.

Between spontaneous divination, alacritous cogitation and uncanny forethought, a wizard should rarely be caught with the wrong spell for the job.

 

[Dandu]

He can. Provided he has both detect invisibility and glitterdust memorized.

If you don't have See Invisibility prepared and for some reason your party spotter is absent, there's always your familiar. Bats have Blindsense, snakes and rats have Scent, and owls and eagles have great spot checks. I believe I may be forgetting a few useful familiars.

Meanwhile, in some other thread he wishes he had enlarge person and resist energy while he's fighting a drow warlock with chilling tentacles.

When fighting a Drow Warlock, Glitterdust is a viable course of action.

 

[Great Guru]

I think Glitterdust is a viable option in just about any encounter with creatures that rely on sight. Odds are that somebody will get blinded.

 

[Great Guru]

Moving on...

How about gricks. CR 3? Sure they've got DR 10/magic and a good number of attacks...but they've only got 9 hp and their attacks are fairly low damage.

DR x/magic might not even be a roadblock if the party cleric has the War domain and casts Magic Weapon on the weapon of the party bruiser.

Would CR 2 be more realistic?

 

[Runestar]

How about gricks. CR 3? Sure they've got DR 10/magic and a good number of attacks...but they've only got 9 hp and their attacks are fairly low damage.

DR x/magic might not even be a roadblock if the party cleric has the War domain and casts Magic Weapon on the weapon of the party bruiser.

Would CR 2 be more realistic?

Possibly. Though even cr2 seems a tad too high, but it is definitely too tough for a cr1.

I think that in extreme cases like this, you may want to redesign the grick rather than try to find a compromise for it. As mentioned, it has low hp which is supposedly compensated by decent dr (except that scorching ray does it in, a raging barb could plausibly deal that much damage on a hit), crap damage but a lot of attacks (4 tentacles can really add up).

For me, I would advance it all the way to 6HD (improving its cr to 4), then slap on the dungeonbred template to reduce its size back to medium. This improves its hp to 45 (I place the extra stat point for its 4th HD in con), attack to +8 (4 tentacles at 1d6+4 each), fort/reflex/will weigh in at +5/+4/+7.

Featwise, dungeonbred grants the endurance feat for free, which paves the way for diehard (giving that little bit of extra hp). Other possible feats include travel devotion (if you want to give it a version of pounce so it can attack with all its tentacles more consistently) or perhaps simply weapon focus.

I know that being large should technically add +1cr, but since it is arguably too weak for a cr3 to begin with, plus staying medium robs it of reach, I decided to assume it has already been factored in. Seems fair for a cr4?