Ogre Mage - CR 8?

[pawsplay]

If you don't have See Invisibility prepared and for some reason your party spotter is absent, there's always your familiar. Bats have Blindsense, snakes and rats have Scent, and owls and eagles have great spot checks. I believe I may be forgetting a few useful familiars.

Handy. Potentially risky, but handy.

When fighting a Drow Warlock, Glitterdust is a viable course of action.

Sure. Still, the duration on Glitterdust is very short. And at higher levels, the warlock is going to dispel glitterdust to get free hit points.

 

[Dandu]

Handy. Potentially risky, but handy.

Blindsense and Scent are effective if the Ogre is "standing right next to you".

Sure. Still, the duration on Glitterdust is very short.

It's called Metamagic Rod of Extend Spell, Lesser.

And at higher levels, the warlock is going to dispel glitterdust to get free hit points.

At those levels, warlocks have long since ceased to be an actual threat.

 

[Runestar]

Sure. Still, the duration on Glitterdust is very short. And at higher levels, the warlock is going to dispel glitterdust to get free hit points.

Glitterdust will last for at least 3 rounds. How long do you need to take down the warlock? Combat generally won't last for more than 4-5 rounds at any rate.

 

[pawsplay]

Blindsense and Scent are effective if the Ogre is "standing right next to you".

Right, I was just thinking about a relatively weak familiar being under enemy fire.

 

[Great Guru]

Possibly. Though even cr2 seems a tad too high, but it is definitely too tough for a cr1.

I think that in extreme cases like this, you may want to redesign the grick rather than try to find a compromise for it. As mentioned, it has low hp which is supposedly compensated by decent dr (except that scorching ray does it in, a raging barb could plausibly deal that much damage on a hit), crap damage but a lot of attacks (4 tentacles can really add up).

For me, I would advance it all the way to 6HD (improving its cr to 4), then slap on the dungeonbred template to reduce its size back to medium. This improves its hp to 45 (I place the extra stat point for its 4th HD in con), attack to +8 (4 tentacles at 1d6+4 each), fort/reflex/will weigh in at +5/+4/+7.

Featwise, dungeonbred grants the endurance feat for free, which paves the way for diehard (giving that little bit of extra hp). Other possible feats include travel devotion (if you want to give it a version of pounce so it can attack with all its tentacles more consistently) or perhaps simply weapon focus.

I know that being large should technically add +1cr, but since it is arguably too weak for a cr3 to begin with, plus staying medium robs it of reach, I decided to assume it has already been factored in. Seems fair for a cr4?

All very reasonable. However, I'm sort of looking at CRs for the "base value" monster - the monster as is from the MM.

I'm not familiar with the dungeonbred template. What's its source?

 

[Uder]

Holy moving goalposts Batman.

I think the ogre mage is too weak for CR8 against a standard party, but if there's a Theoretical Internet Wizard in the party? The kind with every spell, metamagic rod, and familiar required to shoot down a rhetorical point? CR 1/2 at best.

 

[Dandu]

Holy moving goalposts Batman.

I think the ogre mage is too weak for CR8 against a standard party, but if there's a Theoretical Internet Wizard in the party? The kind with every spell, metamagic rod, and familiar required to shoot down a rhetorical point? CR 1/2 at best.

I wasn't aware that a wizard who prepared glitterdust more than once/had a spare scroll or two of it on hand was a Theoretical Internet Wizard.

 

[Runestar]

Well, I guess there still are wizards out there who prep bull's strength and knock in their slots instead of glitterdust and web.

Holy moving goalposts Batman.

I think the ogre mage is too weak for CR8 against a standard party, but if there's a Theoretical Internet Wizard in the party? The kind with every spell, metamagic rod, and familiar required to shoot down a rhetorical point? CR 1/2 at best.

To be fair, my wizard would be expected to at least have a rod of lesser extend by 5th lv. And glitterdust is simply too good to not prepare. But even without extending it, it lasts for 4-5 rounds minimum, enough time to plan and execute a counter-attack against the ogre mage.

I wasn't aware that a wizard who prepared glitterdust more than once/had a spare scroll or two of it on hand was a Theoretical Internet Wizard.

Seems the standards for qualifying as a Theoretical Internet Wizard get lower every year.

Though I wouldn't cast it from a scroll, seeing how the DC caps at a crummy 13.

All very reasonable. However, I'm sort of looking at CRs for the "base value" monster - the monster as is from the MM.

I'm not familiar with the dungeonbred template. What's its source?

Dungeonbred is from dungeonscape, basically "de-advances" a monster by 1 size category, while making it more suited to an enclosed dungeon environment. Been using it for quite a while, especially since I don't quite like too big monsters cluttering up the battlefield.

As for why I didn't give a straight cr, I felt that some monsters are just too fragile to merit a single cr value. Their effectiveness would depend on a variety of factors, such as whether they manage to pull an ambush off. It has the hp of a cr1 foe, but a damage output that puts a cr4 monster to shame (actually comparable to a very young white dragon!), offset only by its crummy attack bonus.

So I thought what I could do was to try and patch some of its more glaring weaknesses, making it more well-rounded so it has no one clear weakness the PCs can exploit. Though I admit that even the cr4 version seems to pale in comparison to the very young white dragon...(but then again, everything sucks compared to a dragon of the same cr...)

 

[Vigilance]

I used one of these guys, and IME Mearls was just way off. These guys are tough.

I don't think Mearls ever said they weren't tough. He just said they didn't really have a good schtick, and were too tough to use with ogres, which was something he felt was natural.

But I don't think he was actually saying their CR was wrong.

 

[pawsplay]

Well, he wanted to take away cone of cold, and they've been blasting cold "as a wand of cold" since AD&D, so I shall pout. It's not that I'm religious about old monsters or anything, but as with any cultural transformation, rapid change can lead to the loss of language and shared experiences.