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GM Prep Time - Cognitive Dissonance in Encounter Design?


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Doug McCrae

Legend
It took me until now to realize it, but I just finally followed the link the OP posted.

That quote from David Noonan is from a 2007 article about the Monster Manual... V.
When you read the whole article it's a lot more reasonable. The problem Noonan is talking about, monsters with a dozen or more spell-like abilities, all of which the DM then has to look up in the PHB before he can run a simple combat encounter, is quite real. It's a problem I experienced in 3e.

Powers unique to the new monster are often better than spell-like abilities. At first glance, this principle seems counterintuitive. Isn’t it easier and more elegant to give a monster a tried-and-true power from the Player’s Handbook? On the surface, sure. But watch how it works at the table. The DM sees the spell-like entry, grabs a Player’s Handbook, flips through it to find the relevant spell, reads the relevant spell, decides whether to use it, then resumes the action. See where I’m going with this? That’s a far more cumbersome process than reading a specific monster ability that’s already in the stat block. Heck, the physical placement of one more open rulebook is a hassle for a lot of DMs.

And Noonan's not saying monsters should have no culture or place in the world.

Are there exceptions to the “limit your world-building” principle? Of course. It’s easy to conceive of a whole adventure that revolves around the world-creation myth of the hadrimoi. But the play experience at the table is enhanced if the monster entry provides a few cogent details of culture to get the DM pointed in the right direction, then steps back and lets the table run off wherever it likes.

I happen to agree with this. I think the 'world-building' should be brief - a couple of sentences, a para - but suggestive. It should, as Noonan says, point in a particular direction (or several) that DMs can run off in if they want. For example if it's stated that an NPC is 'devoted to the cosmic principle of Law as an ideal but in his quotidian dealings is an absolute pragmatist' this suggests all sorts of things in a short phrase.
 
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Rechan

Adventurer
The way I see it is, a statblock should be trimmed down to showcase only significant, interesting abilities which the creature possesses.

Let's look at a 3E balor's statblock. It has a list of SLAs as long as your arm. Some of those SLAs are interesting; for example, it can drive people permanently insane, take control of their actions, and teleport at will. On the other hand, blasphemy, implosion, power word stun, and fire storm are just different flavors of "beat you over the head."
So far we've all been quibbling over the size of the block, but I think we're missing something that is the biggest difference to me.

With the 3e Balor, I not only need the monster's statblock. Before the fight I have to look up all those SLAs, and review the Balor's Feats, and see how all of these interact with the rest of the Balor's stat block. Then I have to use all of this to decide its tactics. Then I need copies of all of these spells at the table for reference when the balor uses them.

With the 4e Balor, not only is the statblock smaller, but all pertinent rules are in the block itself. I do not have to memorize what a spell does, or have a reference on hand, or shuffle through a stack of papers. It's in one place, the same place with its AC.

So it's not just the SIZE of the block, but that all the rules info is located in one reference point.

If the statblocks were smaller, but still forced me to reference other books just to have the rules for what the monster's abilities do, they'd be just as bad!
 
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Umbran

Mod Squad
Staff member
Supporter
I don't think you are being fair to Professor Cirno here; you are venturing a guess at something that he actually described quite fairly and comprehensively in an earlier post in the thread http://www.enworld.org/forum/genera...issonance-encounter-design-3.html#post5183974

Yes, that's the post I started with. What he seems to be looking for is, to me, poorly defined. It looks to be subjective to the given GM's playstyle.

I think that it is reasonable to expect that a module has cohesive plot and relationships, and at least allows for the possibility that there might be some approaches other than fight your way through!

No argument there. But exactly which bits of stat blocks are useful to that end, and which aren't? Have too many bits, and the thing is cumbersome. Have too few, and we gripe that possibilities aren't presented. Damned if they do, and damned if they don't!
 

Hussar

Legend
Something that has been sort of touched on, but I think really needs to be called out specifically about KotS. This was the first module produced for a very new system. And, it was produced by a company that honestly doesn't make very good modules. There are exceptions out there, but, honestly, would anyone put WOTC at the top of the list for "Great Module Makers"?

So, it's not really a shock when the module is a bit... well... weak.

However, taking the leap from "this module is weak" to "This module proves how bankrupt their design philosophy is" is a bit of a stretch.

Then comparing that module to a Paizo 3e module - a company known for making excellent modules, in a system they've been producing for for years - isn't a particularly fair comparison.

Just a question about the BBEG riding a horse in the Paizo module. I'm not very familiar with this module, but, since it's germane - is there actually a horse anywhere in her vicinity for her to ride out on?
 

Wicht

Hero
Just a question about the BBEG riding a horse in the Paizo module. I'm not very familiar with this module, but, since it's germane - is there actually a horse anywhere in her vicinity for her to ride out on?

Actually there is a horse the goblins have captured.
 

Rechan

Adventurer
Just a question about the BBEG riding a horse in the Paizo module. I'm not very familiar with this module, but, since it's germane - is there actually a horse anywhere in her vicinity for her to ride out on?
No. I was the one who brought it up, and that was my point: she's at the bottom of a dungeon.
 

KidSnide

Adventurer
So far we've all been quibbling over the size of the block, but I think we're missing something that is the biggest difference to me.

With the 3e Balor, I not only need the monster's statblock. Before the fight I have to look up all those SLAs, and review the Balor's Feats, and see how all of these interact with the rest of the Balor's stat block. Then I have to use all of this to decide its tactics. Then I need copies of all of these spells at the table for reference when the balor uses them.

With the 4e Balor, not only is the statblock smaller, but all pertinent rules are in the block itself. I do not have to memorize what a spell does, or have a reference on hand, or shuffle through a stack of papers. It's in one place, the same place with its AC.

I think the 4e stat block is a thing of (relative) beauty. There is little more than I would ask of a stat block than to allow me to run the monster/NPC in combat with all the relevant rules in a single location. 4e tends to require more enemies and more complicated GM tactics because - just as a general matter - the combat part of 4e is a much more complicated and tactically rich game than previous editions of D&D.

The problem is that 4e provides less help setting up the world and the internal logic of NPC-to-NPC interaction. The monster manuals are much better than the WotC modules in this regard, but they are still thin on questions regarding how monsters behave and are organized. And they are also thin on non-skill/non-combat abilities like what rituals they are likely to know (whether or not these rituals are also accessible to PCs). To take a demon example mentioned above, it would be useful if there were sets of rituals commonly known to certain types of demons and devils (e.g. turning someone insane, long term mind control, etc...).

This material isn't completely absent. We know, for example, that mind flayers collect thralls, that hobgoblins tend to have monstrous "pets", that kobolds love traps and that otyughs like to hang out in giant piles of... well... let's say in gross places. But there needs to be more. As much as I found the three-ring binder format of the old 2e Monstrous Compedium annoyingly fragile, the combination of small stat blocks and large sheets allowed the writers to provide fairly substantial descriptions for many monters.

I like that WotC, as rules designers, have focused on rules that are relevant to PC interactions with the world. But too much of the "how do the monsters fit into the world" material is relegated to the Open Grave / Draconomicon / Planar books. And, even in those books, little space is given to non-combat special abilities.

Modules are a special case of this. General information on how creatures fit into the world is correctly left in the monster manual. However, there needs to be information concerning how the monsters fit into that particular scenario. I don't need to know if the 4th hobgoblin on the left knows how to cook, but I do need to know why the hobgoblins are there and what their leader is trying to do.

It's an interesting question whether the 4e philosophy of focusing on the combat stats has lead the same group to write bad modules like KotS. My guess it that the HPE1-3 modules were designed for "lowest common denominator" games, and that the module authors simply put more of their efforts into the core D&D products than the modules themselves. I recall a post by Mike Mearls saying that he didn't think KotS was a good module either. IMHO, it was a really stupid idea to provide a crappy module as the first introduction to 4e, but (as others have noted) it's the module - not the system.

-KS
 

Wicht

Hero
No. I was the one who brought it up, and that was my point: she's at the bottom of a dungeon.

Just as you are mistaken in saying that there are no clues in the module pointing to Nualia until the PCs encounter her, so too you are mistaken here. The text of the module contains a horse on the top part of the dungeon and discusses the possibility of encountering her somewhere other than the very bottom of the dungeon. Some DMs allow for fluidity and activity in their dungeons and it is possible for monsters to leave their rooms if they are good. For one thing, there was no toilet on the bottom floor of the dungeon. :)
 

Rechan

Adventurer
Just as you are mistaken in saying that there are no clues in the module pointing to Nualia until the PCs encounter her
Regardless the PCs don't get to meet Nualia. Just like Kalarel they get notes about their plans, but that is sub par to any actual legitimate interaction.

so too you are mistaken here. The text of the module contains a horse on the top part of the dungeon and discusses the possibility of encountering her somewhere other than the very bottom of the dungeon. For one thing, there was no toilet on the bottom floor of the dungeon. :)[
Look damnit, I have the module in front of me right now. Would you like to read it to me? Since you know it so well, where on the map is the toilet? I have looked over the Thistletop writeup three times now, and see no mention of Nualia's movements. The only mention of her location is in the description of E4: "The primary villain of this adventure is likely encountered here". Everything past that point is going on about her motivations/ritual.

The module says Nualia is two floors beneath the area where the horse is. Hussar asked if it was in her vicinity. I do not consider something 2 floors above me to be within my vicinity.
 
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