Why arn't Controllers Sexy

[DracoSuave]

I think Scorching Burst and Magic Missile is probably a bit of a wimpy combination control-wise, yes. I'd want one at-will that blocks up the battlefield in some fashion or debuffs an enemy. Replacing either of those spells with say Storm Pillar or Magic Missile with Winged Horde or something like that would be an improvement. Honestly wizards are one class that could REALLY use a third at-will a whole lot as the choices there are pretty difficult.

Even so SB + MM by itself may not be so bad. Its when the player also selects say Force Orb for an encounter power and Acid Arrow for a level 1 daily. They simply have NO control at all, so effect they're a striker, but without striker dice. Its like running a rogue and never getting CA, your DPR will be terrible and you really don't DO anything else that makes up for it. With no strong class feature and no ongoing effects of any kind, no debuffing, and no condition placement or effect on terrain the character simply can't pull its weight in combat at all. I've seen a lot of builds of this type and inevitably the player is going to feel like they are not valuable to the party and inferior to the real strikers, which is true, but obviously not the fault of the wizard class per-se. Its certainly not BAD to have one pure damage power at level 1 and any of the pure damage wizard powers can be effective, you just can't stack up on them like that.

Scorching Burst IS good damage tho.

It ignores cover/concealment, hits multiple targets, and benefits from many different feats that boost its potential and efficacy.

Magic Missle, counting as a basic attack, can benefit from Bracers of Archery, not to mention the usual 'Make this hit harder' stuff. With a Master's Wand of Magic Missle, it -becomes- a control option that cannot be denied. Combining the Master's Wand of Magic Missile (which doesn't require you attack with the wand) with a petrified orb means you're doing a LOT of pushin' around and decent damage to boot.

 

[Mengu]

With a Master's Wand of Magic Missle, it -becomes- a control option that cannot be denied. Combining the Master's Wand of Magic Missile (which doesn't require you attack with the wand) with a petrified orb means you're doing a LOT of pushin' around and decent damage to boot.

I thought properties only worked if you attacked with the weapon/implement. The only reason they clarified staff of ruin not working any more in the off-hand was because of dual implement spellcaster. Am I wrong?

 

[firesnakearies]

I think that unless the property is worded specifically to say that you have to be attacking with that weapon/implement, they both apply if you have two different magic weapons/implements in your hands.

So the Master's Wand of Magic Missile + Petrified Orb combo should work, and be legal. But you'd have to be casting through the orb, as that's a specific stipulation of the superior implements.


Also, Scorching Burst was a great power, for all of the reasons that DracoSuave stated. Now, however, I think that Winged Horde is always a better choice. (Enemies only, attacks Will, and has a control effect in addition to a damage die. All you give up is the +Int mod damage, and that's a small price to pay.)

 

[Dice4Hire]

I think the wizard is so iconic that for most players it IS the controller role. I have yet to see anyone play an Invoker. Its a great class, but just not iconic in any way. Few players with a character concept come along and say "aha, Invoker fits this perfectly!". People DO play Druid often enough but I don't think they really realize they are playing a controller half the time (and its not all that hard to bung up a Druid either if you have an unclear idea of what you want to do with it). Druids also can make a more credible stab at playing a strikery role than a wizard can.

Well, against Undead, Invokers are terrific strikers as well as controllers, but against everyone else, I agree, they are more difficult.

 

[KarinsDad]

Also, Scorching Burst was a great power, for all of the reasons that DracoSuave stated. Now, however, I think that Winged Horde is always a better choice. (Enemies only, attacks Will, and has a control effect in addition to a damage die. All you give up is the +Int mod damage, and that's a small price to pay.)

Always?

I actually think that Scorching Burst is superior to the erratta-ed Wing Horde a good deal of the time.

The "enemies only" is very good. But the control effect is weak and rarely that helpful. Most melee PCs can shift around foes. Will vs. Reflex, not a big deal.

When compared to Int damage on multiple foes and feats like White Lotus Riposte, Winged Horde is often good, but Scorching Burst is sometimes much better, especially if the party cooperates and sets up situations where multiple foes can be attacked.

I think the balance between the two is finally decent.

 

[firesnakearies]

I don't mean that if you had both powers, you'd always want to use Winged Horde. Obviously that's not the case. I just mean that for me personally, mechanically speaking, if I have to choose to have one or the other power, I'd always choose Winged Horde.

The only reason I'd choose to take Scorching Burst instead of taking Winged Horde would be for thematic reasons, in support of a character concept. But mechanically, I think that Winged Horde is just more useful more of the time.

 

[Aulirophile]

Always?

I actually think that Scorching Burst is superior to the erratta-ed Wing Horde a good deal of the time.

The "enemies only" is very good. But the control effect is weak and rarely that helpful. Most melee PCs can shift around foes. Will vs. Reflex, not a big deal.

When compared to Int damage on multiple foes and feats like White Lotus Riposte, Winged Horde is often good, but Scorching Burst is sometimes much better, especially if the party cooperates and sets up situations where multiple foes can be attacked.

I think the balance between the two is finally decent.

I dunno, grabs auto-end if you can't take OAs. That is one out of like four hundred applications I've found for denying OAs being total win. I wouldn't take both, and given that, Winged Horde is going to win for me.

 

[mneme]

For elemental genasi blaster wizards, you always start with Scorching Blast -- 1d6+7 beats 1d6 by a substantial margin, particularly since it goes to 1d6+9 at 4th level (yeah, yeah, you might drop it by a point to get "essential" side stats, but the point stands). But there's a great case for switching to Winged Horde when you get a way to add/switch damage types even there -- as sure, the combat advantage feature is minor, but the enemies only one -- particularly when you're enlarging the spell all the time -- is decidedly not.

 

[Aulirophile]

For elemental genasi blaster wizards, you always start with Scorching Blast -- 1d6+7 beats 1d6 by a substantial margin, particularly since it goes to 1d6+9 at 4th level (yeah, yeah, you might drop it by a point to get "essential" side stats, but the point stands). But there's a great case for switching to Winged Horde when you get a way to add/switch damage types even there -- as sure, the combat advantage feature is minor, but the enemies only one -- particularly when you're enlarging the spell all the time -- is decidedly not.

Yes, when building a Striker who subs controller, adding all your mods is very helpful. Which is what a Gensai EE Wizard is.

 

[KarinsDad]

I dunno, grabs auto-end if you can't take OAs. That is one out of like four hundred applications I've found for denying OAs being total win. I wouldn't take both, and given that, Winged Horde is going to win for me.

Any PC can shift one square. Many melee types can shift multiple squares. Some PCs can teleport. To me, stopping a few potential OAs when the PCs typically do not have to move through enemies sounds vastly overrated.

There are just too many other ways to get the same "not needed that often" result.

In fact, some PCs go out of their way (some Rogues for example) to force OAs so that someone like a Fighter can Combat Challenge.

I have a Ranger whose player sometimes complains when he doesn't get hit because he has so many good interrupts that occur when he gets hit.

Stopping a few potential OAs in an encounter? Vastly overrated.