Dragon 338: Returning to Athas, part1

[The Little Raven]

Heroic Tier: PCs explore the athasian deserts.
Paragon: The GM realizes many of the tough monsters are feywild critters. PCs move to the Dark Sun Feywild.
Epic: PCs fully explore the feywild, and then go back to the material plane, which they have had little contact with. The campaign makes little sense now, so the game dissolves. This causes frustration in the players, who eventually relieve that frustration by killing everyone at a local sunday school.

If 99.9% of the Feywild is gone, and the remnants are scattered in different areas of the world, it doesn't sound at all like you can run around in it for a tier... or even an extended period of time. It sounds like fodder for dungeons and small adventures.

 

[Wik]

I dunno yet. But from what I've seen, I think it could be an excellent addition.

Which is why I'm going to wait until the book is actually released and we have actual, substantive information on the role of the feywild.

-O

Now where's the fun in THAT!?

As I've said before, most of what I'm saying is purely in an "academic" sense - I already know a lot of what I'll be doing in my campaign, mining these new ideas on a case by case basis. And feywild is most likely out.

Wik/Kamikaze, the feywild you seem to be assuming is at odds with the description we were given. Ie, that there are small spots on the map - not connected to each other - that touch the athasian feywild.

There's no ability to go into the feywild for a tier. It's not a plane. It's a single tower here, a single oasis there, etc.

There's a very big difference in flavor between - "Here's the Athasian version of a race" and "The gods are dead. Divine power source isn't available*. If they seem equivalent to you, then I suspect it might be built more on a dislike for one or more specific races.

No, I get that there are small spots. But it seems like these small spots will be occuring every time the eladrin fey steps, right? Which means... those small spots will be everywhere that there is a combat happening that includes an eladrin.

Hm. There seems to be a lot of "Small spots", eh?

And then we get into "if they're so small, why make them there at all?" part of the argument. Why does that oasis need to be its own plane? Dark Sun has plenty of crazy stuff - to make it stand as somehow apart from Athas kind of belittles the baseline setting.

And for what it's worth, you're taking my quote completely out of context. I was looking at Rich Baker's blog, who said, flat out "We need to include Eladrin, as we don't want to alienate the guy that always plays an Eladrin", and yet they specificially say they're going to take out the divine power source. Those are two conflicting statements, which makes me wonder about the logic behind including Eladrin - they were willing to cut out a whole slew of classes, which seem like a much bigger cut... so why Eladrin?

They are not equivalent to me. I think it's obvious that they are not. So I'm wondering at the logic. Because it makes no sense, as far as I can see.

And they're not just "adding a race" - I can get behind that. I would have no problem with that (I never once moaned about the Dragonborn being added - though I did draw the line at Tieflings, for much the same reason as Eladrin). What I am having a problem with is adding a new planar element to the game that does not really need to be there, to justify the inclusion of a PC race.

Imagine if the designers said "we really need to include tieflings in the game, so there's going to have to be a hell. So, hey, here's the new Abyssal planes in Athas - they're like normal hell, only dialled to 11!".

 

[Wik]

If 99.9% of the Feywild is gone, and the remnants are scattered in different areas of the world, it doesn't sound at all like you can run around in it for a tier... or even an extended period of time. It sounds like fodder for dungeons and small adventures.

It sounds to me like an excuse for GMs to not think outside the box. "I have a great idea for a weird oasis, but it might not fit into Dark Sun... oh, I know! I'll make it in the feywild!"

"I have a great idea for a tower, but I want it to stick out in the players' imaginations... oh, I know! I'll make it part of the feywild!"

And what the feywild does is actively set the adventure apart from the rest of the setting. And I see no reason why it is necessary, here.

 

[keterys]

No, I get that there are small spots. But it seems like these small spots will be occuring every time the eladrin fey steps, right? Which means... those small spots will be everywhere that there is a combat happening that includes an eladrin.

Hm. There seems to be a lot of "Small spots", eh?

Or, the Eladrin has the ability to teleport 5 squares, and there aren't any spots at all.

But, that at least narrows down on the "don't like fey step" argument better

they were willing to cut out a whole slew of classes, which seem like a much bigger cut... so why Eladrin?

You only cut what makes sense to cut, and no more. Dark Sun's core concept is that there are no higher powers than Sorcerer Kings and the Dragon, that there is no higher hope, no salvation. Divine being cut makes sense. There's no reason to cut Eladrin (or tieflings, or...)

though I did draw the line at Tieflings, for much the same reason as Eladrin). What I am having a problem with is adding a new planar element to the game that does not really need to be there, to justify the inclusion of a PC race.

Tieflings don't require a planar element to work, technically. Also, note that there were always Gith and planar menaces in the setting.

Imagine if the designers said "we really need to include tieflings in the game, so there's going to have to be a hell. So, hey, here's the new Abyssal planes in Athas - they're like normal hell, only dialled to 11!".

Then it wouldn't be like what they said about the Feywild?

What's wrong with the idea of demons and devils roaming throughout the Athasian Desert, though, perhaps occasionally controlled by powerful spellcasters?

 

[Pseudopsyche]

And for what it's worth, you're taking my quote completely out of context. I was looking at Rich Baker's blog, who said, flat out "We need to include Eladrin, as we don't want to alienate the guy that always plays an Eladrin", and yet they specificially say they're going to take out the divine power source. Those are two conflicting statements, which makes me wonder about the logic behind including Eladrin - they were willing to cut out a whole slew of classes, which seem like a much bigger cut... so why Eladrin?

Talk about abusing quotations. Baker never wrote the words you attribute to him. As I recall, he said that players benefit from the inclusion of "most or many" elements from the core game. I don't see a contradiction in acknowledging a tension between familiarity and innovation.

I presume that the designers decided that "no divine power source" is an important enough aspect of Dark Sun to remove a familiar set of classes. They also decided that "no eladrin" is not an important enough aspect of Dark Sun to justify the race's exclusion. Obviously, you would not make the same call, but their decision is not intrinsically inconsistent. It sounds to me like they found an interesting story for the eladrin that will not undermine the setting's goals, no more than the inclusion of eladrin or dragonborn or tieflings in the Eberron Campaign Setting ruined that setting.

 

[Aegeri]

There isn't enough facepalm in the world for what you're writing Wik. There really isn't. This in particular:

And for what it's worth, you're taking my quote completely out of context. I was looking at Rich Baker's blog, who said, flat out "We need to include Eladrin, as we don't want to alienate the guy that always plays an Eladrin"

This is utterly hilarious. You first start by complaining you are being taken out of context in certain quotes and then proceed to completely misquote Rich Baker with words he never said.

Well done on hoisting yourself that firmly upon your own petard as that takes a genuine amount of effort.

 

[mkill]

I feel pretty sorry for the designers here. They're doing the community a service by actively engaging fans in a forum, and what they get is nitpicking and people blowing some minor details way out of proportion. Stop that Statler and Waldorf act, or at least be more funny while doing it.

Let's face it, the whole feywild issue is maybe half a page in a 150 page book. The entire description is probably shorter than the blog post we saw. If it's such an anathema for you, just blank the whole page with whiteout or rip it out and eat it (and kudos that you already know you hate it even though you haven't seen the thing yet).

But accept that a rewrite of a setting for a new edition and by new writers will include their vision of the setting, and that's a good thing. It means that the setting will be breathing new life, after laying dormant for 15 years.

And also accept that there is a whole new bunch of players out there, all of which will be new to the setting, and they won't share your preset image of what "true" Athas is. But if you DM Dark Sun (and this time, non-ironic kudos to you) you will be in charge and you can install your own true Athas, in the same way that the designers put their own true Athas in the book.

 

[Ahnirades]

I understand that.

However, both of those examples do not scream "athas" to me. They scream "ravenloft". And yes, they're cool ideas, I'm not faulting you that. But they would break the "feel" of the setting were I to present them at my table.

Athas is a place where the natural world has been corrupted, and is now dying. It is not a place where the are magical analogs - anything of the sort simply dilutes the fact that it is a dying realm, but it's the only realm you got.

That's fair enough (and cool to boot), but yours is a single interpretation that emphasises the post-apocalyptic theme above all else. Whilst undoubtedly important it's not all Athas has to offer.

As I understood (and played) it, Dark Sun's influences included, but were not limited to: swords-and-sorcery, swords-and-sandals, swords-and-planet, ray harryhausen movies, Dune, ancient middle eastern politics, chthonic horror and, yes, environmental degradation and collapse. All were fun and none discouraged the sort of magical analogues thus far described.

Athas is big enough to contain multitudes, so let it.

For what it's worth, there is only one "plane" in any Athas I've ever run - a hodgepodge of the ethereal and the place where psionic combat takes place. A sort of shadow realm. And it's only really reached through your psyche - there are no physical forms there. It was thrown in simply to allow many D&D spells to make sense.... in 4e, where that requirement no longer applies, I'll be dropping it.

It's interesting that your vision of Athasian cosmology was an attempt to reconcile pre-existing mechanics with the setting. Sound familiar?

It's also a fantastic idea, by the way. Even if I don't use it for DS consider it yoinked.

 

[ProfessorCirno]

A note regarding "world turned to 11" and all that:

Anything and, indeed, everything that would exist in the Athasian Feywilde should exist in Athas itself instead.

There shouldn't be someplace worse, because Athas is already supposed to be "Deathplanet."

Whenever people say "Well, how about this idea for what the Feywilde is like..." my first thought is "Why not just have that in Athas proper and not shunt good ideas to the other planes?

 

[Ulrik]

A note regarding "world turned to 11" and all that:

Anything and, indeed, everything that would exist in the Athasian Feywilde should exist in Athas itself instead.

There shouldn't be someplace worse, because Athas is already supposed to be "Deathplanet."

Whenever people say "Well, how about this idea for what the Feywilde is like..." my first thought is "Why not just have that in Athas proper and not shunt good ideas to the other planes?

Because Athas is supposed to follow a set of natural laws. Magic has warped some of it, but there is still a basic set of rules at the bottom. The Feywild would not be constrained by that.