D&D 4E How Badly Do Randomly Rolled Stats Affect 4E Math?

[renau1g]

MY players are pretty casual in RL (I am the only one with a DDI susbscription...heck 1/2 of them don't even know what DDI or the CB are). So...their optimization skills are very, very low and we had three of the players roll 2 18's during the random rolls. That said, they still weren't more difficult to challenge, actually were easier to challenge with n+1 encounters than the PbP'ers I DM for here on Enworld (where I find only n+3 or 4 are any level of threat). So in the end it really, really boils down to player tactics (my group routinely spreads their damage out, not focus firing).

I would leave encounters as is to start and if you find the players steamrolling them, maybe consider a tiny bump to monster to hits.

 

[the Jester]

Rolling stats is fine. If you want the pcs to remain pretty well "baseline" 4e stat-wise, just stick to the 4e rule that the total ability bonus should fall between +4 and +8.

 

[Tequila Sunrise]

If the PCs' stats are consistently 2ish higher than the standard array, increase monster level and DCs by 1.

I do also force players to reroll if a significant majority of players are of equal power level. So in the case of my games, I calibrate a narrow power margin, such as in a game where players got a +9, a +10 and a +11, the fourth player must re-roll until she got one of those numbers.

Wait, you punish players for rolling after other players? If I rolled great stats, say +11 total, but Steve also happened to roll +11 total two minutes ago, I'd have to reroll? (And most likely get much lower stats.)

That seems really...well, I'll wait for your reply and hope that I'm misunderstanding you.

 

[kilpatds]

My comments below all assume that the "random rolling" PCs get stats that average 15 or more ... because I've played with the guy who can't roll lower than 13 on 4d6 drop the lowest. And seen him roll those two 18 arrays right in from of the DM.

At high levels, I don't think it will matter much. I've of the opinion that the base game can handle PCs with all starting 18s. Remember that only two stats get boosts, and eventually the difference between stats is restored.

At low levels, it will matter more. Especially if your players are decent optimizers and don't just use net-builds. As an easy example, a rogue with 3 18s (Str,Dex,Cha) will be very very happy.

Off-stat skills will get much more use. But I'd almost consider that a feature. If you've got a bunch of high stat players, add 5 to skill check and skill challenge DCs (effectively ignore the errata/update that removed 5 from those numbers)

But basically, I don't think it's going to affect things enough to really matter... at least once you get out of Heroic tier.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

My comments below all assume that the "random rolling" PCs get stats that average 15 or more ... because I've played with the guy who can't roll lower than 13 on 4d6 drop the lowest. And seen him roll those two 18 arrays right in from of the DM.

At high levels, I don't think it will matter much. I've of the opinion that the base game can handle PCs with all starting 18s. Remember that only two stats get boosts, and eventually the difference between stats is restored.

At low levels, it will matter more. Especially if your players are decent optimizers and don't just use net-builds. As an easy example, a rogue with 3 18s (Str,Dex,Cha) will be very very happy.

Off-stat skills will get much more use. But I'd almost consider that a feature. If you've got a bunch of high stat players, add 5 to skill check and skill challenge DCs (effectively ignore the errata/update that removed 5 from those numbers)

But basically, I don't think it's going to affect things enough to really matter... at least once you get out of Heroic tier.

Yeah, I think you haven't seen players with a good understanding of character builds.

The issues actually MOSTLY arise at higher levels, but if you are using PHB3 and various power books you'll see it right from the start. Having a bunch of high(ish) stats allows you sidestep a number of built in limiters. Anyone with a good knowledge of hybrids for instance can do a fairly significant power up because essentially they lack the built in assumed restriction on usable class combinations. Effectively they can just add a hybrid class that is nothing but a pure power up. Dropping Swordmage on top of almost anything for example, or Warlock, or Paladin will give you a really appreciable power boost.

Then you hit paragon and again there are a number of things that the system pretty much assumes you can't do because you won't be able to attain various combinations of high stats. Same at epic. So the issue actually gets more significant at each tier.

Because a lot of things are tied directly to a PCs level the difference probably won't become astronomical, but it can get fairly large. A character that actually started with all 18's would be even more extreme, though again there are limits they can't really get around. Still, I'd say a skilled player at epic level could leverage it for a gain equivalent to 4-5 levels, which would cause issues.

The flip side is true as well. Having a 16 pre-racial at level 1 is not by itself going to guarantee you much. If your other stats were all 10s and 12s you could easily suffer a good bit as you get into the higher tiers. The character isn't going to be non-viable, but they may well have bupkus for epic tier feat choices, EDs, and such.

 

[Solvarn]

What level should monsters be if the players are tougher than normal, and can that answer be measured in math?

If I were forced to mathematically figure this out, I would take a normal modifer of +7 to +8 for the average 4E D&D party. That meaning that each character's stat bonuses after addition and subtraction = +7 or +8. I would take that number and number and divide it by the average party's modifier with rolled stats. For example, you are saying that you normally have modifiers of +12 or higher for your rolled PC? Let's assume that is the average of the party.

8/12 = .666

Multiply the sought after XP budget for a given difficulty encounter by 1.666, and you will probably arrive at the desired XP total to make the encountering challenging or easy enough, depending on what is being sought.

Another option would be to take the same stat adjustment and apply it to the monsters. Give the monsters a flat bonus to applicable stats of +1 or +2.

Ok, with that being said, this is where I advise against rolled stats. Rolled stats are an antiquated concept from first edition where there was very little in the way of mechanical methods to really make a character your own. Mathematically what you are doing is starting out each character with a magic weapon. You are creating a lot of preparation work for very little reward or payoff in the fun category. This additional preparation and adjustment could be better spent tooling encounters, writing descriptions, or coming up with solid adventure ideas and construction.

Just keep in mind that in all it may make for a "faster" game. That may be something the DM doesn't want to do. Monsters may seem easier then they should be on an individual basis.

On the plus side, treasure is the same, because that goes by bundles per level.

 

[keterys]

If I were forced to mathematically figure this out, I would take a normal modifer of +7 to +8 for the average 4E D&D party. That meaning that each character's stat bonuses after addition and subtraction = +7 or +8. I would take that number and number and divide it by the average party's modifier with rolled stats. For example, you are saying that you normally have modifiers of +12 or higher for your rolled PC? Let's assume that is the average of the party.

8/12 = .666

Multiply the sought after XP budget for a given difficulty encounter by 1.666, and you will probably arrive at the desired XP total to make the encountering challenging or easy enough, depending on what is being sought.

You inverted your equation there - you'd want *1.5. But, I'd argue your method is essentially flawed. Let's compare two Archer Rangers for a moment.

Point-buy Archer Ranger:
Dex 18
Wis 14
Con 11
Int 10
Str 10
Cha 8
Trained: Nature, Acrobatics, Athletics, Perception, Stealth

Rolled Archer Ranger:
Dex 18
Wis 16
Con 15
Int 14
Str 13
Cha 12

Difference:
+2 Fort, +1 Will
4 HP*, 2 Surges
Occasionally, shift 1 square further or give a further -1 attack on an encounter power.

Trained Skill Difference:
+1 Nature, Perception, Athletics

Some (more avoided or rarely used) untrained skills, like Endurance and Diplomacy, gain a +2 bonus.

* Unless he took a background to use Dex or Wis for hp, in which case no improvement.

Use the higher DCs for skill challenges, secondary FRWs were already too low so that's a feature. More surges per day is helpful, but not a big deal.

 

[kilpatds]

Yeah, I think you haven't seen players with a good understanding of character builds.

Give a specific example, then, instead of generalities? Cause I'm not seeing the synergy you're talking about. Not being able to boost more than 2 stats means you still have only two attack stats. If one of them isn't Dex/Int, you'll still need heavy armor by epic. You can throw on some additional stats-to-damage, but that's just linear power, not synergy.

If your other stats were all 10s and 12s you could easily suffer a good bit as you get into the higher tiers. The character isn't going to be non-viable, but they may well have bupkus for epic tier feat choices, EDs, and such.

Not as relevant after PHB1, because stat requirements have started to drop off substantially... but yeah. If you can't afford any form of mastery, you'll likely be unhappy by Epic.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

Give a specific example, then, instead of generalities? Cause I'm not seeing the synergy you're talking about. Not being able to boost more than 2 stats means you still have only two attack stats. If one of them isn't Dex/Int, you'll still need heavy armor by epic. You can throw on some additional stats-to-damage, but that's just linear power, not synergy.

Well, there are numerous stats-to-damage possibilities, yes, and access to better implements, easier CA, etc etc etc. A BIG one though is the hybrid system. If that is in play then the advantage starts to get much greater. Its not about having higher attack stats, which you really won't. Its about not needing to choose between attack stats and sufficient points in stats that govern access to choice feats or the necessity to pick between the possibility of say boosting your AC vs your to-hit. When you have dual attack stat characters this just increases all the more as with point-buy characters you need to make some significantly hard choices.

Not as relevant after PHB1, because stat requirements have started to drop off substantially... but yeah. If you can't afford any form of mastery, you'll likely be unhappy by Epic.

I've often heard people repeat this folk-wisdom that prereqs largely don't exist post PHB1, but it simply isn't true. I did a little number crunching on that a while back and it just doesn't hold water. What is true is that you won't find epic feats with REALLY high prereqs, they still have high enough ones to effectively disbar many combinations from play and many of the best feats have them. In any case the really core feats you want badly at epic in particular are in PHB1, so yeah, you really want all-around high stats.

What you have to look at in other words is not the effect on attack stats, that's marginal at best and only matters for MAD builds (V classes) or hybrids. What you have to look at is a lot of situations where the designers balanced things by assuming you couldn't possibly get feats X AND Y on the same character at one time. There are a bunch of feats useful to fighters in particular that fall into this category. With a few extra points in DEX and CON or WIS you can both achieve striker-like damage and very high levels of shield utilization or polearm magic which normally just isn't possible.

 

[kilpatds]

Its about not needing to choose between attack stats and sufficient points in stats that govern access to choice feats or the necessity to pick between the possibility of say boosting your AC vs your to-hit.

I don't see what you're getting at here, outside of armor proficiency feats. Either your two main stats include Dex or Int (and thus you're ok with light armor, either way), or it doesn't (in which case you'll need heavy armor. The great starting stats just push it back from Heroic to Mid-Paragon)

I've often heard people repeat this folk-wisdom that prereqs largely don't exist post PHB1, but it simply isn't true.

You have a reference? It certainly looked to me that the feat sections in later books have much fewer stat requirements. (Now, PHB1 has a lot of really important feats, so stat requirements are still important for characters)

There are a bunch of feats useful to fighters in particular that fall into this category.

Such as? I know polearms are rather MAD, but it was possible to pull off on a standard point buy. Broom builds are just a bit easier now. Don't see that as a huge change (and really, don't see Broom builds as a serious issue anyway)