Grognard good...grognard bad

[Silverblade The Ench]

um, wow, I wasn't trying to create such angst ya know folks

as said, to me, liking an older edition, and being a "grognard" who won't try anything else fairly, are totally different things!
if you like 1st, 2nd or 3rd, fine, no skin off my nose, it's all D&D to me That's normal. That's just being a "1st edition, 2nd ed or 3rd ed fan".

But decrying and attacking something 'cause it's new is just crazy, that is worthy of being called a "grognard", 'cause it has been earned, lol.

however, others use the term "grognard" in different fashion, again, as said. To them it just means "Old school version", no denegration.

Every edition will spawn more "old schoolers", who preffer "their fave version". This is not a bad thing!!

however, WOTC needs to cater to them, so yes stopping the pdfs etc was hugely damaging, but we also need to try and stop folk retreating into "bunker down to hell with new fangled stuff!" outlooks.
Not aimed at Enworlders, but ya know what I mean, I get so exasperated when some berk moans about a new edition he hasn't even given a fair shot at, or played with jerks who ruined it for him.

D&D is NOT going to stop at 4th ed, 5th or hopefully 100th edition! Why should it? It's a living growing thing in effect.
new generations want to play it. the company to survive must keep selling new versions, and folk come up with new tweaks all the time.

if folk and WOTC insist on playing "Only their version!" well, groups will get smaller..and smaller...


now, who wouldn't want to see a new WOTC-official 1st ed...Fiend Folio II ?
2nd ed updated DMG with the *gaming hints and tips for the DM* from the 4th ed DMG 1 and 2, which are actually damn good and apply to any edition, hm?
etc

 

[Doug McCrae]

I actually don't think grognard is an insult, it just means a fan of an older edition of a game. Or a slightly more accurate definition might be -"prefers an older edition of a game to the current edition."

One can associate a lot of other stuff with grognards, such as being older than fans of the current edition. And those associations are bound to lead to positive or negative feelings in different individuals. But the word itself has no such connotations, imo.

I'm not a grognard. I like new things. To some extent just because they are new. I feel there can't be a downside to having more choice. The old stuff is still there if you want it.

 

[Imaro]

But decrying and attacking something 'cause it's new is just crazy, that is worthy of being called a "grognard", 'cause it has been earned, lol.

You've actually seen this? I mean I've never seen someone state they don't like 4e because... "it's new.". Now what I have seen is someone say they don't care for the new races or the new fluff, which IMO, is a totally valid oppinion to have. Personally I prefer the Great Wheel and Planescape to what 4e has... does that mean I don't like it because it's new? I thought it just meant I prefered one something over another something.

 

[rogueattorney]

as said, to me, liking an older edition, and being a "grognard" who won't try anything else fairly, are totally different things!

Why do I have to try out 4e or anything else? If I'm perfectly happy doing what I'm doing, why do I have to try to new thing before continuing to do what I was doing before in order to avoid being labeled with a word you consider being a pejorative? (And I still don't think "grognard" is pejorative.)

But decrying and attacking something 'cause it's new is just crazy, that is worthy of being called a "grognard", 'cause it has been earned, lol.

Who decries anything just because it's new? I like older D&D, but don't like newer D&D, but I buy plenty of newer game products (much to Goodman Games and others' pleasure, much to my wife's displeasure). The issue isn't, and never is, new game versus old game. It's game I like versus game I don't like.

however, WOTC needs to cater to them, so yes stopping the pdfs etc was hugely damaging, but we also need to try and stop folk retreating into "bunker down to hell with new fangled stuff!" outlooks.

Just because we're not particularly interested in what WotC has to offer in terms of D&D, doesn't mean we're bunkered down. If you were to actually spend some time reading some of the "old school" blogs and websites, such as Grognardia, you'd see a fairly substantial portion of the webspace is given over to reviewing and even creating NEW material.

Personally, WotC's conception of what D&D should be is so obviously different from mine that I have a hard time believing that anything they put out that was aimed at the other "mes" out there would grab a hold of us.

Not aimed at Enworlders, but ya know what I mean, I get so exasperated when some berk moans about a new edition he hasn't even given a fair shot at, or played with jerks who ruined it for him.

And I get exasperated anytime anyone's complaints about older versions basically boils down to, "My DM was 12 and didn't have the slightest idea of what he was doing." There's a lot of ignorance out there, and it doesn't seem to have an edition preference.

D&D is NOT going to stop at 4th ed, 5th or hopefully 100th edition! Why should it? It's a living growing thing in effect.
new generations want to play it. the company to survive must keep selling new versions, and folk come up with new tweaks all the time.

if folk and WOTC insist on playing "Only their version!" well, groups will get smaller..and smaller...

Of course, the remedy to this is to not put out edition after edition after edition, and instead try to get an "evergreen" edition into every house in America... but that's a subject for another tread.

now, who wouldn't want to see a new WOTC-official 1st ed...Fiend Folio II ?
2nd ed updated DMG with the *gaming hints and tips for the DM* from the 4th ed DMG 1 and 2, which are actually damn good and apply to any edition, hm?
etc

I've got 1e compatible monster books that have come out recently. Monsters of Myth and Malevolent and Benign. Both are very good. Anyone remotely interested in 1e style monsters should pick them up. If I want the 4e DMG advice, I can always - y'know - buy them, just like the 4e DM can still go back to the great advice in the 1e DMG.

 

[Ariosto]

In the gaming context, I think a bit of grumbling about the latest fashion -- especially about the latest fashion in complaining that the old school is "not fun" -- tends to go with the territory whether or not it should be a prerequisite for the badge of 'grognard'.

A certain guy who is a decade or two older than me and has been into fantasy gaming since maybe before Dave Arneson's proto-D&D -- but prefers 4e rather vehemently, actually -- might get the 'grognard' label in a non-D&D context almost just for understanding what one is talking about.

What I mean is that, even if he avers that he would rather play the latest computerized confection, that he just doesn't have any more what it takes for a hex-and-counter battle or a grand miniatures campaign, there may be evident delight in his recollection of the days when he was an avid player.

 

[Ariosto]

The issue isn't, and never is, new game versus old game. It's game I like versus game I don't like.

Ditto. I wonder whether even people talking that line buy it.

I don't expect a fan of Advanced D&D to like, say, Tunnels & Trolls just because it's older than AD&D. I don't expect a fan of either to dislike Stormbringer because it's newer.

 

[Odhanan]

I'm what people call a grognard. I love OD&D and AD&D. I don't care for the most recent edition of the game.

Here's the shocker: I love playing/running the New World of Darkness. I love what Mongoose did with RuneQuest II. Aces & Eights is a game made of Win.

I posit that the only people pretending that grognards hate on stuff just because it's new are people who are not grognards themselves, and actually do not understand what they are talking about (that, or they willfully smear people disagreeing with them, which is well, lame).

Take that as you will.

 

[Aus_Snow]

as said, to me, liking an older edition, and being a "grognard" who won't try anything else fairly, are totally different things!

You might be able to relate to this, then. . . personally, when I catch a preview for a new movie, sometimes I just know I never, ever want to see that thing. I mean, maybe you've never experienced this. So, substitute whatever works for you, if that's the case.

So it goes with games, at times. I don't need to play 4e in order to be 100% certain that it's not the game for me. In fact, I went further than I have with many RPGs, and actually read the first three core books - skimming a little, naturally - thanks to my friend in the main FLGS here.

But decrying and attacking something 'cause it's new is just crazy, that is worthy of being called a "grognard", 'cause it has been earned, lol.

If I saw anything of that nature, I'd be right there with you, in righteous indignation. If I even cared enough to be.

Not aimed at Enworlders, but ya know what I mean, I get so exasperated when some berk moans about a new edition he hasn't even given a fair shot at

Well, see above. Also, I don't think it does a game (or the gamers who like it) any favours, when criticism is shut down / mocked / discouraged. It makes it/them seem rather. . . well, fragile. Not the most desirable image for the market leader and its adherents, one might presume.

As for WotC needing to cater to players of older editions? No, I don't think so. More than that, I don't believe they would have the right approach anyway. Plenty of people are already doing a superb job with these undertakings, and what WotC "needs" to do, well. . . that'd be up to their own marketing department, management or whoever else. Focusing on 4e and 4e only seems the smartest move, *now*, to me. A bit late to go backpedalling, as it were. And frankly, the money wouldn't be there, but in the new game, overwhelmingly. And good will gestures in that regard? Hm, no, definitely too late there.

 

[Ariosto]

Aces & Eights is a game made of Win.

I agree, but people who think an RPG needs to do everything with a Universal Mechanic might find it made of mind-blowing stuff (and not in a good way).

But that kind of ideological pucker is not uptight, because only the unfashionable preference can be uptight.

 

[The Shaman]

It's 4oron and 3tard.

Shows you how much attention I actually pay to this.