Does anyone else think this is a bug in CB?

You should examine the text of the feat you are talking about. It specifically says MAGICAL implements, something that twin strike does not stipulate. The reason it isn't adding anything is because intrinsic bonuses do not make your weapons magical in any form.

Edit: Intrinsic bonuses are enhancement bonuses so they do not stack with magical item enhancement bonuses. It's an exclusive either or system as a result. Once again, examine the TEXT of the feat you are talking about, you need to be wielding TWO magical implements for it to work. Intrinsic bonuses, do not make normal weapons magical.

To be clear the damage bonus is untyped equal to the Enhancement bonus of the off hand item (which since it works for the Ranger...) Still seems like a nerf to spell casters.

OK...so we have an off hand item with an Enhancement bonus based on level, but it isn't magical since that's the only other clause in DIS that isn't met. Anyone care to argue the point that this isn't stupid?
 

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Anyone care to argue the point that this isn't stupid?
YES!

DIS is deliberately made the way it is so that you have to actually keep your off-hand implement up to scratch to get the bonus.

Are you keeping your off-hand implement up to scratch? Have you bought a +1 off-hand implement?
No.
You haven't.


OK...so we have an off hand item with an Enhancement bonus based on level, but it isn't magical since that's the only other clause in DIS that isn't met.
The implement isn't a +1 implement. You are a +1 person. The implement doesn't have an enhancement bonus. You do.


In addition: a game with inherent bonuses CAN still have magic implements/weapons. It's just that, once you're good enough, that +1 sword just doesn't help anymore, it's beneath you to bother with. That +1 flaming sword? That's still useful. It's flaming, not many swords do that.
 


Let me put it a different way. If I'm a Fighter I can go through my entire career using a normal non-magical weapon and using the Inherent bonus system I will never suffer any ill effect. I won't miss any bonuses to hit or damage ever.

If however, I'm a spell caster, there is this feat that suddenly doesn't work anymore because of a behind the scenes game mechanic?
 

Let me put it a different way. If I'm a Fighter I can go through my entire career using a normal non-magical weapon and using the Inherent bonus system I will never suffer any ill effect. I won't miss any bonuses to hit or damage ever.

If however, I'm a spell caster, there is this feat that suddenly doesn't work anymore because of a behind the scenes game mechanic?
If you're a weapon user you'll never get a flaming weapon because of a behind the scenes game mechanic?

If your GM agrees that you deserve the +x bonus, because you would (if you could) be spending money on keeping the implement high, then put an implement in in the CB, shouldn't break anything to have a +x (where x is your inherent bonus or less) implement.
 

It's a house rule that the CB allows you to implement because it's in DMG2. Yes, it results in spellcasters falling behind in damage (barring another house rule), but blame WOTC for the fact that spellcasters need DIS to even approach weapon users in damage anyway, and that weapon users are still basically greatly superior, and then go get yourself a weapliment.
 

I think you guys are looking at this the wrong way.

DIS is the spellcaster's answer to Iron Armbands of Power. Inherent rules don't allow the IAoP, I think... so DIS should be useless too.
 

I think you guys are looking at this the wrong way.

DIS is the spellcaster's answer to Iron Armbands of Power. Inherent rules don't allow the IAoP, I think... so DIS should be useless too.

IAoP are not replaced every 5 levels like the 3 core Enhancement items are. IMO Inherent is a way to run a game as a low magic world because you don't need to pass out anywhere near as many magic items per level because once you get a magic weapon/implement you'll never need to replace it. Like artifacts, they then scale with the PC. IAoP could still be given out in a game where you were using Inherent.
 

It's a house rule that the CB allows you to implement because it's in DMG2. Yes, it results in spellcasters falling behind in damage (barring another house rule), but blame WOTC for the fact that spellcasters need DIS to even approach weapon users in damage anyway, and that weapon users are still basically greatly superior, and then go get yourself a weapliment.

You need DIS, as well as several other things. Last session I was using DM Battlescreen to track combat. At the end I wound up with my archer Ranger doing 37% of all the damage in a 7 player party (42% would have been 3 players worth of damage). This forced me to seriously look at all the PC's in my party to find out why there was such a HUGE variation in damage output, and I found many things that explain why my combats have been taking 3-4 hours at n and n+1 difficulty. And let me clear up that it's NOT because the Ranger was doing too much damage, but the other strikers were not doing enough for various reasons.
 

You need DIS, as well as several other things. Last session I was using DM Battlescreen to track combat. At the end I wound up with my archer Ranger doing 37% of all the damage in a 7 player party (42% would have been 3 players worth of damage). This forced me to seriously look at all the PC's in my party to find out why there was such a HUGE variation in damage output, and I found many things that explain why my combats have been taking 3-4 hours at n and n+1 difficulty. And let me clear up that it's NOT because the Ranger was doing too much damage, but the other strikers were not doing enough for various reasons.

The original point stands though, DIS requires a magical implement in the off hand. It gives a damage bonus equal to the enhancement bonus of the off hand implement, which in your case is 0. It may well be an unforeseen side effect of the inherent bonus system, but it exists. You could easily house rule it and in CB just give yourself a magic implement in that hand to make the numbers come out right. Inherent bonuses are an optional rule, they may not interact perfectly with every other part of the system.

I agree, optimizing strikers to increase their damage output can have a really significant impact, especially at mid-high paragon. Even so I would suspect that the other strikers you're comparing to are a bit sub-optimal. Another possibility is those players simply aren't doing a very good job. Are they coordinating their attacks with leaders to get to-hit bonuses? Do they exploit flanking? Do they take advantage of things like Prime Shot? A lot of the variation I've found comes from how the character is played. A good player should be able to do pretty well even with a striker with no special feats.

Heck, the other day I took a look at the character sheet for the level 10 starlock in the group I'm DMing for. This guy has NO feats that do anything for his damage output. The one feat he has that helps his DPR at all is Warrior of the Wild (gives him HQ once per encounter). He's still doing really excellent damage, and with a class that by reputation generally has a lousy damage output. He's just good at tactics. He's always taking advantage of leader bonuses etc. He's done a good job with his ability scores, picks good powers, uses them effectively, and just generally makes sure he's eeking every last drop out of his character. I guess he just really has better uses for his feats. I'm sure he could pump out a lot more damage if he'd take Expertise and DIS and Weapon Focus, but good play is at least as important as tweaking your build when it comes right down to it.

By comparison the rogue in the same party has all sorts of feats, Weapon Expertise, Weapon Focus, Backstabber, TWF, etc. That particular player honestly has just never quite grokked the 4e rogue. Her damage output is less than the fighter's most of the time. Lately she's been getting a little smarter, but I'm pretty sure in most fights she's done poor damage. The build of the character is fine. It may not be tweaked to the Nth degree but its a totally solid build. Its all in the play. The warlock stomps her on total damage output encounter after encounter.
 

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