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What would WotC need to do to win back the disenchanted?

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Well, it isn't you, specifically. It's your age bracket.

You've been playing since '74. You're middle-aged. You're in with all the folks who have college debts, mortgages, and kids. Quite frankly, in your age bracket folks have major choices - there's almost nothing considered really disposable income. On top of that, with the family commitments, you probably don't have time to play anyway. Marketing to you is a losing proposition.

The snot-nosed kid, on the other hand - every cent he's got can be squandered on drek, and he's got oodles of spare time.
I don't think you have it right here.

I have a lot of financial obligations. But, I am a gamer and I spend money feeding my habit. My indulgence budget is more than every cent the snot-nosed kid has.

What the kid has on me is future market position.
 

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I'd happily purchase some more 1e AD&D stuff from them in PDF format, provided they were digitally water-marked and not laden with DRM.
 

They hang around on the 4E board now, and when they visit the General RPG board, they avoid threads like this one, full of people who don't like 4E patting each other on the back.

Their loss since there always seems to be an about equal amount in the "not-4e" section and double the amount in General.
 

Beyond about 8th-level, the extraordinary class abilities fall very much into the "...though they may break the laws of physics" half of the definition.
Good point about extraordinary abilities. They do tell us that the secondary world in 3e has different physical laws from ours, beyond those of magic.

With the exception of the cure spells, hit points actually work just fine. Assuming you understand how the mechanics work.
Good article, so far as it goes, but hit points are still stoopid.

What about when Dupre has taken 99hp damage (by the Alexandrian's reading that makes him very badly wounded) and yet although on 1hp he is operating perfectly well, the same as he was when he had 100hp, no penalty to anything. One could question whether Dupre even knows he's badly wounded. By the abstract reading of hit points Dupre is supposed to be fatigued/low on 'skill'/out of luck, etc and yet he's not fatigued or unskillful or unlucky in any way except that the next blow will be fatal. His damage, spellcasting ability, movement, skill rolls etc are all at maximum capacity. Doesn't that seem lacking in consistency?

There's also the massive damage save. A character with 100hp can be killed by a 50hp blow and yet a character with 12hp cannot be killed by a 6hp blow. By the Alexandrian's interpretation both blows must be of equal severity as they both remove the same percentage of hit points.

And there's hit points and then there's hit points. Dupre's 100 hit points are partly physical but mostly skill, luck, etc. However an elephant or a wall's 100 hit points are all physical. Then there might be halfway cases, such as an efreet, a large-sized creature. What proportion of its 65hp are physical and how many non-physical? Sometimes hit points are one thing and sometimes another, and sometimes halfway between.

And what about when they finally catch Dupre and put him on the headsman's block. Coup de Grace, dead Dupre, by the 3e rules. But where is Dupre's luck now? Where his divine protection? Why does everything that saved him from a hundred foot fall now desert him?

Now I have no problem with any of the above. My point is merely that 4e doesn't look much different to previous editions in its lack of consistency.
 

This. Anyone who thinks kids don't spend as much as us adults is out of touch with the reality of kids spending money on frivolities.
I think you are confusing fraction of income with raw dollars.

To be clear, I'm not remotely claiming that marketing to younger players is a bad idea. For one thing, there are a lot MORE of them then there are of me. For another thing, they will still be buying gaming products when I'm dead.

And, I really don't see anything in 4E that targets younger people that I have a problem with. Anime, "more dragon men", whatever catch phrase applies, its all good. I can *easily* re-tool the paint job on the surface of the rules. It is practically a negligible issue to me.

To me it is all about the gamist all things equitable design core that is the problem. And I really don't think that has anything to do with age demographic. And I strongly believe that while 4E may or may not have attracted a larger initial interest, the 5-year, 10-year retention of "gamers" is lower than it would have been with a more "be the character first, this is what RPGs are about" approach.
 

WOTC seemed to always pay attention to these boards. At least in a lip service sort of way if nothing else. DO they not do that anymore, or was it only Scott Rouse's personality?

What changed? Was it official, or just anecdotal?
They do, but I really don't think it's a great idea to hop into this thread.

I mean, if they're not making a game you like, you're gone for at least a while. I'm sure they'd like to sell you more things, but if you have zero interest in anything 4e-related, a sales pitch would be ill-advised. They'll have to concentrate on their current market, and look at expanding to new markets. Odds are, you're not in either of those groups at the moment, no matter how much you believe they need your money as opposed to someone else's.

If you are angry with them for whatever reason, it's not a great idea to get into that on a messageboard. Odds are you'd like an apology or an acknowledgement, but they probably don't think they have anything to acknowledge or apologize for. So if you're looking for an apology, this thread will only deepen ill-will.

If you feel they've offered you personal affront and insult, due to your love of gnomes or otherwise, I don't think there's anything they can do to combat a reaction that's not based in reality in the first place.

If I were with WotC, I'd probably read this thread, but damned if I'd comment. This is at the point where it's not about the game itself for a lot of people - it's about the company or the personalities or the ethics or all kinds of stuff which has absolutely nothing to do with the quality of the game itself. Stepping into this kind of thread would be just throwing themselves to the wolves, IMO.

-O
 

But talking about how the philosophy of 4E prevents one from having truly "outstanding RPG experiences" or can't provide a rewarding experience built around the imaginations of quality players - sorry, but that's pure nonsense.
You are failing to grasp the difference between "prevents" / "can't provide the experience" and "does not provide the best possible support for maximizing the experience".

You can player poker with an old deck of wrinkled and dog-eared cards and all the players know 1/3 of the cards just by seeing their back.

And anyone can say it is a great poker experience.

But playing with a fresh deck provides a better experience. Both are still poker. And as I clearly stated, you can easily 100% roleplay a monk on top of the 4E mechanics.

Now, somebody who loved the tattered deck can stamp their foot and insist that there is no difference. And nobody can force them to say otherwise. And perhaps they just don't know the difference.

But there is a difference.

I haven't the slightest quibble with one or the other being the best fit for a certain person's tastes. There are a lot of people who would vastly prefer an evening of bridge or pokemon or whatever to any kind of RPG. Being bothered by the preference of 4E makes no more sense than being bothered by one of those preferences.

But to simply declare an equivalence is the nonsense. There are differences and those differences change the qualities.
 

What I find interesting about this thread is that there is nothing new here. I see the same comments that have been made over the past 2-3 years. The only difference is this thread hasn't been locked like all of the others. Though the message is still the same.

It will be interesting to see if Essentials is an olive branch to the people they kicked off their lawn.
 

Now I have no problem with any of the above. My point is merely that 4e doesn't look much different to previous editions in its lack of consistency.

Maybe, but we are gamers. Most of us know about the inconsistancies in the hit point abstraction used by D&D. We've been making jokes about them since the early stages of the game. Most of us also have played other game system that don't use hit points, and we know about the tradeoffs involved in doing so. Very few players of any game play it for long without realizing or discovering for themselves how the different sorts of abstractions fall apart in actual play. And most of us who still play D&D have made the decision that the advantages of the hit point model out weigh its disadvantages. We in practice find a way to narrate the abstraction in a way that seems more consistant than it actually is.

Let's not pretend that everyone here is stupid. This is a pretty knowledgable crowd and many of us either are game designers or could do it if you stuck a gun at our heads and said, "Rulesmith or die." When a designer uses some sort of abstraction to represent something complex - like a wound - in a way that is simple (like hit points) we are able to make a reasonably informed decision about why that was done and what therefore we think about the tradeoff that was made between realism/versimlitude and gamist concerns like speed of play and ease of bookkeeping.

The problem I think 4e has is that for most existing gamers, D&D already occupied the position of most abstract sort of system we played. Many of us earlier in our careers probably dabbled with systems like RoleMaster or GURPS (GULLIVER!) or what not that tried to do very complex simulations. And we learned eventually that there was no free lunch; that if you traded off some abstraction to have wounds and hit locations and so forth you gain other different and sometimes considerable problems. So those that stuck with D&D on the whole did so because it was as abstract of a system as we could play to achieve a particular result. There were a small percentage of players that looked at D&D and said, "I need something more abstract.", but that market has never been strong enough to support really large communities. Most of D&D's competitors try to be less abstract and more 'realistic'.

So along comes 4e and for my part my anticipation was that issues like 'hit points are stoopid' and other issues arising from poor versimilitude were going to be high on the list of things to address. Instead, I got a game system where the decision was made that round approximations of a circle on a grid were too difficult, and instead we'd just use square bursts. No, I understand the trade off being made here, but quite franklly, I DO UNDERSTAND THE TRADE OFF BEING MADE HERE. I'm not stupid. I know the D&D model has never been a perfect simulation. I left the game at one point on a quest to find the better simulation. You aren't telling me anything by lecturing me on how D&D has always been abstract.

The really obvious problem you are missing is that D&D has always been almost too abstract to play and has always been almost too close to failing basic versimilitude tests to endure. Almost too much, but, after a bunch of experimentation and alot of cleaning up the system by the 3e designers, almost but not too much. And honestly, after 25 years in gaming, I find myself coming to realize just how much D&D got right from the start and how little of its core principles need to be messed with. Those sacred cows: the didn't become sacred arbitrarily which is what I'd arrogantly thought when I was a snot nosed pimple faced DM thinking I could certainly build the better system.

4e may be building on a legacy of so abstract that it can be 'stoopid' but it went in the wrong direction. Just because I except this much crap in a trade off to get something, doesn't mean I'll accept twice as much crap to achieve particular goals which apparantly were important to the designers but which would have not been listed in my top 20 peeves with 3e.
 
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On hit points.

Should you decide to have the discussion about the validity of HP as a mechanic, I'd advise that looking at the statistic granularly will cause you a loss of clarity.

Think of HP as a combination of tenacity, endurance and paper cuts. Ok, you've been hit... what kind of hit? Ok.. you took 30 points of damage and have 90 something.. you're bruised and shaken up by that hit. You're bloodied? Hey guess what.. that means you're bloodied.. you're cut open and you're dealing with nicks and tears.. perhaps the kind that you'd receive in real life from falling off a bike going full speed. It hurts.. it's going to slow you down some.. you might be a little strained.

Only when you hit zero does someone catch you good enough to land a serious blow, one that makes you stop and fall. You may still be conscious, you might not be. But you're down. I liken this to the "getting grazed by a bus and knocked silly" effect that would happen to a normal human being..

Heroes are not normals. It takes a lot more to knock them silly.

By the way this also makes the healing surges and other concepts like bloodied, make a lot more sense. You've not sustained a horrible pulsating, potentially fatal gash until you hit zero. A lot of the reasons people have against hit points happen because of an unrealistic expectation that 30 points of damage should be a limb rending hit..

Well.. no.. it shouldn't to a hero.

KB
 

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