What would WotC need to do to win back the disenchanted?

[MerricB]

Drop a bigger percentage of those into your "Official 4Ed" minis line and you'll see people buy them. I know this because I see people looking for them all the time, online and in game stores.

Unfortunately, it's very likely that the quantity people want of those sorts of minis isn't enough to make a profit. Well, not with the low price people expect from DDM. It's a lot more likely that someone will want to buy a single goliath figure... but not ten. And, unfortunately, the ten make it worthwhile while the one doesn't make enough of a profit.

Cheers!

 

[MerricB]

Bingo!

When 4Ed rolled out, I was among the people who talked about the specter of it being the "New Coke" of the RPG industry. I was not insulting 4Ed itself, but questioning whether 4Ed was the product D&D's installed base was looking for.

Probably the most terrifying thing about running the D&D brand is that the "installed base" is so broad. You've got a great variety of people who like fantasy role-playing, and they all approach it, and want, slightly different things.

Any change you make to the game is going to lose people. Not making changes is also going to lose people. The scale that Wizards works on just makes things harder. Paizo can be very happy with a small market. Wizards can't be happy with that... (Does that mean that we'd be better off with Paizo making D&D? Well, some of us would be, but all? I doubt it. 3.5e had outlived its useful life for me when I stopped playing it and took up 4e).

I don't understand what the reason is for the loss of PDFs, but I do think that it probably has to do with factional politics within Wizards. There may also be sales figures and research we don't know about.

Cheers!

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Unfortunately, it's very likely that the quantity people want of those sorts of minis isn't enough to make a profit. Well, not with the low price people expect from DDM. It's a lot more likely that someone will want to buy a single goliath figure... but not ten. And, unfortunately, the ten make it worthwhile while the one doesn't make enough of a profit.

That may be true with the currently popular "randomized minis" craze, but when you sell minis in translucent blister packs, not only can you justify selling the corner-cases (at least in the short-term), your sales figures will let you know what to produce more or less of.

In the short-term, you can produce a sculpt of something like a Dragonborn Rogue and do it in a short production run...and if needed, price it so that even that short run is profitable. Rackham does this with some of its "rare" minis for Confrontation. If your big sellers are priced at, say...$5, you can sell an oddball in a short run for $10. Or you could package it in a small box with other oddballs- say...a Shardmind Invoker, a Minotaur Paladin and a Goliath Runepriest- and sell that for $30. Rackham does this as well.

And if the solo or group box sells well, you extend the production run. If it doesn't sell, you stop making it. If it limps along, you produce a smattering of them every year.

There is a reason why Ral Partha lasted as long as it did...and why some of its classic sculpts are still around.

 

[pemerton]

While I can't say I'm suspicious of WotC's stated motives, I do find them hard to understand. I suppose "puzzled" would be a better term.

Now that does make sense to me. I can understand being puzzled, particularly given that (from your other posts) you seem to have some professional experience with this sort of issue.

For me, to the extent that there is any puzzlement, it's of the mystery kind - ie what is the factor that makes WotC believe that maintaining the PDFs is a losing proposition? My best guess is the splitting/confusing the market thing. I think your legal concerns might also be a factor, but I'd rate that as less likely than the "purity of brand" reasoning.

@MerricB - what factional politics do you have in mind?

 

[nedjer]

Now that does make sense to me. I can understand being puzzled, particularly given that (from your other posts) you seem to have some professional experience with this sort of issue.

For me, to the extent that there is any puzzlement, it's of the mystery kind - ie what is the factor that makes WotC believe that maintaining the PDFs is a losing proposition? My best guess is the splitting/confusing the market thing. I think your legal concerns might also be a factor, but I'd rate that as less likely than the "purity of brand" reasoning.

@MerricB - what factional politics do you have in mind?

Completely guessing but I'd have to wonder if it isn't to do with easy printing. Sell a hard copy to a GM and the players have to get a hard copy PH at the least. Sell a PDF to a GM and she/ he can print the key sections for players and all access to the game without entry costs. This probably backfires, as after a couple of sessions a new player is probably likely to go for a PH anyway.

Wouldn't hold your breath on a return to PDFs or the arrival of editable html, as monetisation based on hardback revenues stands in the way of other forms of monetisation.

 

[MerricB]

@MerricB - what factional politics do you have in mind?

Not everyone is of the same mind about everything in larger organisations. Ryan Dancey had to work to sell the OGL in the first place, but even once it was out there, there would have been people thinking it was a mistake. (Indeed, Gary Gygax thought it was, though he wasn't at Wizards). That we now have the more restrictive GSL shows a change in thinking at Wizards. It might be the same people having a change of mind, but as Wizards have lost a lot of the staff that made the original decision...

I'm sure it's the same thing with PDFs. When you get down to it, Wizards has a business selling printed copies of books. They also do a lot to support brick'n'mortar retailers (see the D&D Encounters program). PDFs detract from the role brick'n'mortar retailers have, and thus can be seen to be a problem. In fact, keeping the FLGS going is of paramount concern to Wizards as they've observed how important they are for forming the networks of players that are so important to their games.

(Try playing D&D or Magic on your own...)

It should be noted that just before the financial problems at Catalyst Game Labs (publishers of BattleTech and Shadowrun) blew up, they were talking about a system to allow FLGS to sell pdfs of their product. Unfortunately, the plan might now be dead.

Cheers!

 

[francisca]

Yeah, this is pretty freaking easy: yanking the PDFs was a business decision. Whether it was to properly defend the IP, piracy cutting into dead-tree sales, fear of older edition sales undermining the new edition, or all of the above, it was a business decision, pure and simple. The official line is that it is was piracy. Maybe it was, maybe it wasn't. The bottom line is that it was all about WotC's, uh., bottom line.

You guys can concoct all the theories you want and it doesn't matter. Even if they did "come clean" and explain why, it would serve no purpose, Mod Edit: Grandma thinks you've gone a touch too far. If you need to use that kind of imagery, methinks you need to chill out.

Now personally, I don't think it was a very good decision, as I'd certainly be spending some money rounding out the PDF collection of the old TSR titles, which is more than the zero dollars I've spent since they were pulled the PDFs. And no, that isn't some sort of protest, I'm just not their target demographic for the current edition, and unlike some, I don't think they killed my dawg or anything - my old stuff is right there, on the shelf for me to use and I'm still having a blast with it.

But whatever, the income generated by the PDF sales wasn't enough to justify the continuation of the program, and thats all there is to it. Maybe we'll luck out and they'll be put back on sale in the future, but this impotent wailing and gnashing of the teeth, while entertaining in a "look at spoiled brat" kinda way, is pathetic.

 

[ExploderWizard]

But whatever, the income generated by the PDF sales wasn't enough to justify the continuation of the program, and thats all there is to it. Maybe we'll luck out and they'll be put back on sale in the future, but this impotent wailing and gnashing of the teeth, while entertaining in a "look at spoiled brat" kinda way, is pathetic.

Just about anything one could want of older products is already out there somewhere. I see no problem at all just going and getting it. I bought a lot of pdfs on Drivethru and was happy to fairly pay for product that I wanted. There is some other stuff that I would still like to get. As far as current stuff, it's available and I can get what I want at my FLGS.

The older stuff. Probably just gonna go snag it since it has an effective value of 0 to the company that owns it.

Time to stop complaining and start downloading.

 

[IronWolf]

I'm sure it's the same thing with PDFs. When you get down to it, Wizards has a business selling printed copies of books. They also do a lot to support brick'n'mortar retailers (see the D&D Encounters program). PDFs detract from the role brick'n'mortar retailers have, and thus can be seen to be a problem. In fact, keeping the FLGS going is of paramount concern to Wizards as they've observed how important they are for forming the networks of players that are so important to their games.

(Try playing D&D or Magic on your own...)

I am not so sure that this is as true today though. Certainly many years ago it was more true, but the times are changing on how content is delivered on many different fronts.

There are now huge networks of players on various forum sites - the game producer's, fan sites, etc. A lot of these players are starting to use more electronic aids at their table which makes electronic content more attractive.

For people looking to play they can easily use any one of a number of forums to find other gamers or look for a meetup group in their area. If they would prefer they can also play the game over a VTT and voice chat application.

Certainly the FLGS is still important to a subset of gamers, but there are now other options out there that should be considered.

And doesn't DDI present some of the same issues as PDFs would?

 

[francisca]

Just about anything one could want of older products is already out there somewhere. I see no problem at all just going and getting it. I bought a lot of pdfs on Drivethru and was happy to fairly pay for product that I wanted. There is some other stuff that I would still like to get. As far as current stuff, it's available and I can get what I want at my FLGS.

The older stuff. Probably just gonna go snag it since it has an effective value of 0 to the company that owns it.

Time to stop complaining and start downloading.

For me, everything I *really* want is on my shelf in deadtree format (plus a lot of crap I don't, thank goodness for ebay). There are some I don't have in PDF, but would like to have, and I'd gladly pay for a legit copy. I'd rather pay for a legit copy, actually. but there is no "need" as I'm largely a homebrewer anyway (which is why "in-print" has never been a determining factor when evaluating rpgs.).

Certainly the FLGS is still important to a subset of gamers, but there are now other options out there that should be considered.

For me, personally, the FLGS is most important for boardgames, and they are doing well in my area selling them. All of them do a pretty decent business in tabletop RPGs as well, but it is a tiny, tiny portion of their income, compared to CCGs, miniature games (like Flames of War and WarHammer), and hobbyist-oriented boardgames (stuff like Power Grid, Agricola, Puerto Rico, etc..). YMMV, of course.