What would WotC need to do to win back the disenchanted?

[Vyvyan Basterd]

I didn't say it was. Ignoring isn't firing.

No, you didn't. My comment related to others' viewpoints in this very thread. Sorry if it seemed I was attributing that viewpoint to you.

All I was saying is that I don't believe WotC designed 4E to target long-term players. If you don't agree with my opinion, that's cool. You may even have information that shows my belief wrong.

I don't have any inside information to back up my feelings, if that's what you mean. But I think it has been show through the history of D&D that change does interest long-term players while concurrently drumming up controversy. 1E's Unearthed Arcana; 2E Kits and Players' Option series; 3E Warlock, Book of Nine Swords, Incarnum, etc.

Many long-term players, including myself, welcome change in the system. I welcomed it at the start of 3E, but a fundamental flaw (IMO) in the very base of the system made it a game I no longer wanted to play in the end.

 

[Vyvyan Basterd]

This thread seems to be veering towards, or beginning to concentrate on, those that are disenchanted with 4E. I believe the majority of posts, mine included, have been about being disenchanted with WotC and WotC marketing. I do know that the OP was specifically about WotC marketing. Why are there people trying to turn a perfectly good thread into one about 4E and not 4E?

The OP limited his view of WotC to the D&D side (no mention of Magic, et al). WotC D&D is 4E, so it is inevitable that the discussion would turn there.

 

[Kaiyanwang]

When you use Shield Bash, you are literally hitting someone with your shield and the mechanics leave no other interpretation. Tide of Iron isn't (normally) about that. It's about the footwork you use to step into the enemy's ground and drive them back. (It requires a shield because if you try coming forward like that without a shield to protect yourself you're simply going to walk onto the enemy's blade).

Ok! now I understood. I actually use either the descriptions basing on what the player is going to do (simply push back the enemy, or follow him with a 5 foot step to splat him on the wall). But I can see what you meant for different. Thanks!

 

[Mircoles]

I wonder why some people even play D&D when GURPS seems to be a better fit for their tastes anyway...

It's easier to find D&D players than GURPS players.

I love GURPS, but it's a bitch finding people willing to play it.

 

[El Mahdi]

My comment related to others' viewpoints in this very thread.

Yeah, there have been more than a few saying that.

...But I think it has been shown through the history of D&D that change does interest long-term players while concurrently drumming up controversy...

Ain't that the truth!

 

[Neonchameleon]

Ok! now I understood. I actually use either the descriptions basing on what the player is going to do (simply push back the enemy, or follow him with a 5 foot step to splat him on the wall). But I can see what you meant for different. Thanks!

My pleasure

So seldom that understanding is reached in this sort of thread...

 

[BryonD]

And yet some "disenchanted" with 4E admittedly have never played it or even read it yet continue to rant on internet boards about how awful it is.

Heh, so let me get this right, you are arguing that you can't compare one real but unquantified group with another real but unquantified group, and you are doing that by referencing a questionable and completely unquantified group?

That's funny.

As for "significant", WotC is still the big dog.

Paizo puts out a great product for a certain segment and seems to be doing well enough on their scale with it. That's great, but is it really significant "to WotC"? How many play/buy both?

How many people play Warhammer RPG that used to play D&D? World of Darkness? Castles & Crusades? GURPS? Are they also all disenchanted with WotC or 4E? How many of them didn't like 3E also?

This is certainly true. But, the question isn't "how does WotC get Paizo fans back?" The question is: How can Wotc get disenchanted former fans back?".

I think those numbers are significant enough the topics keeps coming back up. And, honestly, the conversation is pointless.

Yep. WotC is the big dog. AND D&D is the big brand name. If we lived in an alternate universe where Warhammer 3E was the system called D&D 4E and the D&D 4E system was called Warhammer 3e, then the game system published with the big dog name and the big dog brand would be THE BIG GAME. (And, yes, that reasoning applies to 3E just as well)

That is NOT to say that people like 4E just because of the name. But brand exposure is huge. Take four games that people like and put the big brand on one and that one will be the big dog. And as people play THAT game, their dedication to that particular game will grow.

Of course, how long 4E stays the big dog remains to be seen.

 

[Jasperak]

Next comment I see about CAGI as representative of 4e is going to be met by a diatribe housecats and the way they can slaughter commoners and first level wizards as representative of 3e/PF. CAGI is a (rare) example of the mechanics falling short of the fluff. And there's a reason it's the one always brought up.

Then maybe WOTC should either change it or get rid of it. As long as its there, it is a handy way of stereotyping what some people believe to be one of the inherrent flaws of the system.

 

[Jasperak]

I wonder why some people even play D&D when the boardgame Descent seems to be a better fit for their tastes anyway...

NOTE: See how that works? So why even go there?

Too bad I cannot give you XP. I would have said either Hero/D&Dscape or DDM.

 

[Jasperak]

Honestly, I don't know how to respond to your question. Should I go into a long analysis on what D&D is versus what people want D&D to be or should I just spout out another spiffy one liner?



Conveniently, they list all the playtesters on page 316 of the PHB. I guessimate about 600 playtesters, or at least enough names to fill a whole page with a small font. I'm not gonna count out every name to find out exactly how many.

Amazing, for a game played by millions.

BTW where did they get these playtesters from, the RPGA? (Honestly asking, not trying to be snarky )