Demonomicon, ToH, Orcs of Stonefang Pass and Vor Rukoth in hand

[Festivus]

Orcs of Stonefang Pass

I am a bit torn about Stonefang Pass. On one hand, there are some interesting combats, but quite a few of them seem a bit dull, and overall, the adventure is far too linear for my tastes. I also found monsters like the archerfish which throws water bullets at the players a bit (a lot actually) too silly. On the other hand, it’s has a very good background story (I left out a lot of details above), and perhaps the ballsiest boss encounter seen in 4e. A 16th level solo with a twist, obviously!!! For those two (background + final fight), I am glad I bought it. With that said, I am a bit disappointed with the rest of the adventure.

Yeah, first encounter I read was the archerfish and my immediate thought was what could I replace that encounter with that would be more in line with the adventure at hand.

I haven't finished reading it but I did glance at the other you mention and said "What the heck is that doing in this adventure?" Guess I need to finish reading it!

 

[Jack99]

Yeah, first encounter I read was the archerfish and my immediate thought was what could I replace that encounter with that would be more in line with the adventure at hand.

I haven't finished reading it but I did glance at the other you mention and said "What the heck is that doing in this adventure?" Guess I need to finish reading it!

Glad I am not the only one!!!

 

[Matrix Sorcica]

A picture of the Tomb of Horrors poster maps, perhaps?

 

[Shroomy]

What, the archer fish were awesome! Personally, I think that 4e needs more giant animals.

I was paging through my copy of the Demonomicon and noticed something interesting, baernaloths are in 4e, but in such a way that Shemmy's head is sure to explode.

 

[hamishspence]

I was paging through my copy of the Demonomicon and noticed something interesting, baernaloths are in 4e, but in such a way that Shemmy's head is sure to explode.

Hows that? The closest thing I can think of is the obyriths-

[sblock]who, as described in Demonomicon, are beings of evil incarnate, created the demons via the shard of absolute evil, and created the devils via corrupting Asmodeus.[/sblock]

Which left me wondering- how does "Asmodeus was cast from his master's palace in Baator for excessive brutality and indiscriminate killing, along with all his followers, and they landed on the fields of Avernus, broken in mind and body" in The Plane Above, combine with the story in Demonomicon?:

[sblock]In which he was the eternal guard of Tharizdun's prison, Pazuzu got him to believe his god was bad for giving him this thankless duty, he abandoned his post, and went into the Abyss to carve a chunk of the shard off, fashion it into the Ruby Rod, and led an army into his masters home, before killing him with the ruby rod.[/sblock]

Maybe he was cast from the palace, then later forgiven when Tharizdun was finally imprisoned, and set to guarding him?

Or some other combination?

 

[Shemeska]

I was paging through my copy of the Demonomicon and noticed something interesting, baernaloths are in 4e, but in such a way that Shemmy's head is sure to explode.

Nah, I don't get much upset about it since I stopped looking at 4e as anything but its own distinct game with no continuity to 1e/2e/3e. Something might look awkward and make me go 'wah?' but not upset at this point. I don't play it. I've got my own favored version in print, and 4e fans have theirs. Unless they retconned Harishek ap Thulkesh into something wierd, since he's the one baernaloth I named in canon, I won't make any protest since it's a game I don't much care about at this stage. The purist in me doesn't care since it's a different game than the one I contributed planar lore towards.

Having said that, it was actually surprising to see them (the baern) show up, given how poorly some of the 2e planar material has been portrayed in the past by some of the 4e guys. I haven't read the book myself at this point, but I'll find it on a store shelf at some point and go through it just for a comparison with Fiendish Codex I, which in my mind is the high bar for such a book.

I did see a pretty good review by Rip van Wormer this morning, and I trust his opinion better than just about any other - he knows the background material better than I do oftentimes. It wasn't exactly a good review, but mostly it seems the book suffered because it covers the same ground as FCI just rewritten to 4e's cosmology and it suffers by comparison.

Here was Rip's comments about the book 4E Demonomicom | Planewalker.

The one thing I will approve of was the 4e version giving the baern better stats. They should have had better ones in 2e (though there were ways to rationalize that all).

 

[MrMyth]

Hows that? The closest thing I can think of is the obyriths-

[sblock]who, as described in Demonomicon, are beings of evil incarnate, created the demons via the shard of absolute evil, and created the devils via corrupting Asmodeus.[/sblock]

They show up in the service to Phraxas, the Demon Lord of the Blood Rift. He's reguarly attended by a pack of Baernaloth Viziers. Represented, stat-wise, as minions, which may be what some might be upset by. Admittedly, they might be the highest level minions in the game, so they remain epic in scope - they are only minions in the context of a fight with 30th level PCs, basically. You could easily conceptualize some standard monster stats for them as appropriate mid-high epic monsters, since they have a bit more interesting abilities than most minions.

(Their attacks inflict significant ongoing damage which only ends, I think, when the victim gets far away from enemies, or allies, or some such condition; also, when missed, they pull a vanishing act as they go invisible and teleport away.)

That said, they don't get much discussion of them in detail, so one can decide more about who these Viziers might actually be or why they are there - are they just lackets of Phraxas? Are they secretly manipulating him for their own ends? They aren't really focused on, which gives the DM more room to adjust the situation to their own ends.

Which left me wondering- how does "Asmodeus was cast from his master's palace in Baator for excessive brutality and indiscriminate killing, along with all his followers, and they landed on the fields of Avernus, broken in mind and body" in The Plane Above, combine with the story in Demonomicon?:

[sblock]In which he was the eternal guard of Tharizdun's prison, Pazuzu got him to believe his god was bad for giving him this thankless duty, he abandoned his post, and went into the Abyss to carve a chunk of the shard off, fashion it into the Ruby Rod, and led an army into his masters home, before killing him with the ruby rod.[/sblock]

Maybe he was cast from the palace, then later forgiven when Tharizdun was finally imprisoned, and set to guarding him?

Or some other combination?

I liked almost all of the fluff in Demonomicon, but this somewhat bugged me. They've been pretty inconsistent about Asmodeus's backstory, and I get a bit more disappointed with it each time - it was great to start, grew weaker with the Plane Above, and is now just muddled with the Demonomicon. That's pretty much the only area I've run into where 4E gets confused like that, though, and the rest of the book is so good that I'm willing to give them a pass.

 

[hamishspence]

Faerun seems to give some entities different backstories.

Asmodeus gets "ancient deity turned archdevil" and his re-ascension to deityhood occurs in the Spellplague.

Bazim-Gorag gets "batrachi-turned primordial"

(Whereas The Plane Below calls him a slaad lord, and makes a distinction between slaad lords and primordials)

This is OK by me though- I liked the "Twin Serpents" concept where Ahriman and Jazirian fight and Ahriman is cast down to become Asmodeus- so if 4E Faerun has "Fallen Deity", whereas 4E Core has "Fallen Angel" I don't mind.

 

[Aegeri]

Which left me wondering- how does "Asmodeus was cast from his master's palace in Baator for excessive brutality and indiscriminate killing, along with all his followers, and they landed on the fields of Avernus, broken in mind and body" in The Plane Above, combine with the story in Demonomicon?:

[sblock]In which he was the eternal guard of Tharizdun's prison, Pazuzu got him to believe his god was bad for giving him this thankless duty, he abandoned his post, and went into the Abyss to carve a chunk of the shard off, fashion it into the Ruby Rod, and led an army into his masters home, before killing him with the ruby rod.[/sblock]

Maybe he was cast from the palace, then later forgiven when Tharizdun was finally imprisoned, and set to guarding him?

Or some other combination?

The Plane Above segment on Asmodeus always reminds me of something written from his perspective (or from a devils perspective), especially due to the tone and prose used. The Demonomicon may be an alternative view, where the demons take credit for Asmodeus' fall instead and another perspective. I actually don't mind such "contradictions" because I've always felt such things shouldn't be written into canon - instead left open to interpretation. The demons might be right according to the account in Demonomicon, or perhaps the Plane Above account is correct.

I've never understood this obsession with having direct "Word of God" canon in books. What happened with Asmodeus is ancient history, having 100% known absolute fact seems contrary to the point and rather silly. I would expect different races - especially ones as biased and generally manipulative as BOTH Devils and Demons to have widely different accounts. If Demonomicon gave the same opinions as The Plane Above that wouldn't make any sense whatsoever. Why would demons or devils for that matter tell the truth about such things? They'd have their own biased accounts - you would inherently expect them to be different.

They're also different in perfectly acceptable and even logical ways. One account portrays the events as Asmodeus' doing and the other the demons claim responsibility. I wouldn't be surprised if a book on devils gives another account again. Personally having each side give a different account of things is a strength, because it leaves more room for DM interpretation and an overall "richer" universe. When demons are saying the same things as devils are about history, that is where nothing makes sense anymore.

 

[Shemeska]

I actually don't mind such "contradictions" because I've always felt such things shouldn't be written into canon - instead left open to interpretation. The demons might be right according to the account in Demonomicon, or perhaps the Plane Above account is correct.

There's a difference between botching internal continuity and intentionally providing alternatives myths and legends or details provided by an unreliable narrator. I genuinely appreciate the latter approach, and it was awesome in 2e and at times during 3e when it was used. But if it's going to be that way, it should be described as such rather than presented as straight up fact. Not having read the 4e demonomicon, I can't say which is the case here when it and the Plane Above contradict one another.

Edit: And for whatever reason they change the Marauder's name in the Demonomicon. In 2e, 3e, the 4e MotP, and the 4e DMG 2 it was Shemeshka the Marauder, but it's Shemeshka the False in the Demonomicon. Is it given any explanation or is it a continuity issue?